Episode 269 - Lessons Learned From Custom Car Builds and Business Ownership With Sunny Massera

0:02Hey folks, David here, and I'd like to thank you for joining us for the Changing the Industry podcast. Lucas and I started this podcast with the goal of capturing the frank and open conversations you typically have at industry events. Those conversations cover the challenges we face in our business and lives, as well as difficult repairs, new products and services, and everything in between.

0:26We hoped that these recordings would spur our listeners to enact the change they'd like to see in their own lives and businesses. That's also why we've partnered with the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence. My first management class was with Cecil Bullard, and his genuine passion for helping others in an honest and ethical manner permeates his entire organization. And if you need some of the Institute's help, they have a special offer for our listeners.

1:00Click the link in the show notes and get signed up for a free business analysis. They'll go over your current situation and give you advice on your next steps. And they have everything from free resources and online classes to peer groups, one-on-one coaching, and specific help for MSOs. So don't miss out on this great offer. Click the link in the show notes.

1:26And now on to the podcast. It's, uh, other people, right? And so what, what ended up happening with the partnership? I basically just completely stepped out and I kept going myself, okay, for about 6 months. And I decided I didn't want to do it alone. Did you have any money invested in it, or was it just— he had maybe $10,000 in it, and I ended up finishing his truck, which was about the same thing.

1:51So he walked away without losing anything, and I was out, you know, $20,000 or something like that, right? Just in, you know, startup expenses and paying bills and whatnot, right? Well, introduce yourself. Sonny Massera, Heritage Broncos. I build custom cars and trucks in Tigard, Oregon, right? Well, you've been all over the country. I have. I have. And all over the place. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and growing up.

2:18I grew up in a very rural part of New Mexico, just out in the sticks. I was always interested in machines. You know, started fiddling with bicycles when I was like 5, 6 and moved to motorcycles when I was about 10. Okay. But my dad likes to break things and I like to fix things. So by the time I was, you know, 10, 11, I had 100 dead cars sitting outside.

2:39So I just go outside and started tinkering with vehicles. And I think the first one I got running was a Pinto. Oh wow. Took like, you know, 5 dead Pintos and make one running Pinto out of it. That's it. And then learned how to drive and then just started tinkering with cars pretty much when I was, yeah, about 11 or so after I built a motorcycle, I decided I want to do cars.

3:01Right. And kept tinkering with cars until I got a job for a master port, Porsche technician when I was 17, and I've basically been in shops ever since. Okay. And various capacities for sure. Now you've moved around a lot, like all over the country, and you've seen a lot of kind of cool stuff. What— tell us a little bit about all the moves you've had.

3:23Um, so I— my wife's from Albuquerque, I'm from Taos, so I moved to Albuquerque for a little while. We, uh, I did car stuff there, worked in alignment shop, Subaru shop. Then we had an opportunity to move to Northern California, to Sonoma. Okay. And I was working, I was selling cars there. I was buying cars and selling them to people in California.

3:44Because I could get cars really cheap in Denver and I'd shuttle them over to Northern California and sell them. Did that for a little bit. Then my mother-in-law got cancer, so we moved back to Albuquerque. But I worked in various shops there, mostly hot rods and custom stuff. Moved around a little bit doing that. I worked in an alignment shop for about a year, you know, turning out 8, 10 alignments a day sometimes because there's no rust, you know.

4:09Yeah, all the bolts turn right away, right? So that was, that was pretty good. It gave me a lot of experience there. Um, and then let's see, in '14 I decided to open a hot rod shop and did pretty good. I had that open for about 5 years, but again, I picked the wrong person to be a partner. And it was a 50/50, but I did 90% of everything and he just kind of stood around.

4:32Right. So I dissolved that. Okay. Had a knee injury, which kept me from going to work and I couldn't find good employees. But I mean, really I had no idea how to run a business. I was not a businessman, you know? Right. Been turning wrenches my whole life. I didn't know what I didn't know, you know? Right. And was this the last shop or was the last one you owned or was this another one?

4:52That was the first one I owned. Okay. In Albuquerque. And then I closed that down and started working for various friends. I worked out of my garage for a little while just because it's low overhead. I already own the garage. And that was a good learning experience. And then I moved to Oregon because my wife got a good job. She's in the wine industry, beverage industry.

5:16Oh, okay. So she got a job in Portland, so we decided to move up there because That was right before COVID which is great because the economy absolutely crashed in New Mexico. Yeah. And we've just been slowly building there. I had— I worked in a variety of hot rod custom shops in Portland, and some of them I stayed at for a little bit, some of them I left right away, various reasons.

5:41Either wasn't a good fit. Usually it's because just poor management, poor ownership on the shop's part. A few of them were really good. I wasn't a good fit, you know? And I switched to just doing customs and hot rods because I'm not, I'm too, I find myself to be too meticulous to do flat rate. I'm like just, you know, I can't be fast enough to make enough, you know?

6:07Like there'd be guys around me doing 50, 60 hours a week and I'd be maybe hitting 30, 'cause I just, like in my brain, I have to clean every part, you know? Like— Right, make it nice and make it right. Yeah. So I switched to doing customs and hot rods hourly because it just made more sense. I know I was gonna get paid, you know?

6:26They know what they're gonna get out of me at the end of the day. Yeah. And then doing quality control for some of these shops, you know? Like we do, we'd finish a build and they have me go drive it around so I could, I used to do a lot of driving of really cool custom cars. Oh, that's slick. That's awesome. Once I got a name for myself Portland people.

6:44I'd get calls every day, every week to go look at, you know, some hot rod that has a whatever problem. And it makes more sense to go to the car as opposed to bringing a car to me. Yeah. Um, so I do a lot of that, and it's just been, uh, kind of an upward grind, you know? Right. So tell us a little bit about starting the shop, because you started your own shop in Portland, right?

7:06I did. So I was renting— I was renting space out of this big this, it was kind of like a community shop where you could just rent spaces. And I had, I was like the only guy in there for a couple months and cars started filtering in. I started getting some more customers. I had 3 builds at the time that just kept me completely busy.

7:23So I was just doing those. I did a full custom '72 C-K5 that went through Barrett-Jackson actually. And because I was building that truck, it brought me this other customer who became my partner, who— and he kind of pushed me into it. I knew I wasn't ready. I didn't have the network. Yeah, I knew I wasn't ready, but you just kept twisting my arm.

7:43So I was like, all right, let's do this. And then after about 8 months, I realized— I was like, this is not for me. I'm not a businessman. And it was a real struggle. And I— and again, you don't know what you don't know until, you know, you find out. Yeah. And then about— I closed that in January of '23. And then I found you guys a couple months later.

8:06And I said, yeah, yeah, no, no regrets. It brought me to where I am now, you know. So you say you've figured out that business ownership wasn't for you. Tell us kind of a little bit about that. Okay, share with us what it is, because there's a lot of technicians who are thinking like, hey, I want to go start my own shop.

8:22Sure. And we see a lot of them that do go start their own shop, and then they either have financial troubles and fail Or they come back. Lucas and I have been telling you about PartsTech for a while now and how it gives you access to unlimited parts and tire vendors and direct integration with over 35 shop management systems. And now they've just launched a new referral program.

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9:34Hey, one more thing. If you find out that your shop management system doesn't integrate with PartsTech, it's time to upgrade. David and I use what we believe to be the very best system on the market, Shopware, with unmatched features like Parts GP Optimizer and DVX, which is their digital vehicle experience. Shopware really is way more than just a shop management software. With it, you'll be able to create an immersive and interactive experience for your client, setting you apart from everyone else using run-of-the-mill software.

10:00Are you ready to upgrade? Click the link in the show notes to get started. And they're like, dude, I had no clue this is what this was. Yeah, they get really frustrated, really irritated. Now about 4%, 5% go on to thrive and it turns into a great thing and they make it work and they've just had a good location and all the things like the stars align, you know.

10:18Yeah. Yeah, but there's a couple, a couple deviations there that like, that's not what's happening. They hear about the success stories. Sure. Right. They don't hear about the failures. So, and I'm not saying yours was a failure, but like, what were those awarenesses that came to you after the fact? Well, after realizing the amount of work that went into it, not, not just fixing the cars, but, you know, you know, selling the work, doing the paperwork, you know, I had a was using AllData and their shop management software, which for me was fine because it was just, I was one person.

10:54That simplified things a little bit, but it was more of a slow realization that like, I didn't go to college, I didn't go to business school of any kind. And I had buddies who were— Wouldn't have helped you, by the way. No, exactly. It doesn't help. No, it doesn't help. Well, I mean, it does help, it depends on the individual. You know, I have a friend that did 4 years, he got a business degree, now he builds amazing hot rods.

11:14But he focused on that when he went to school. Challenge that just a touch, because I think it does help. I think if you get, if you get at least some information, if you get at least some ability to read a P&L and, and some perspective. Have you ever taken business classes? No. Okay, well, take some business classes and then come back and tell me that you were actually going to help run a business, because it doesn't.

11:37I'm just telling you, it doesn't. But you know what, it helps you helps you, uh, write out spreadsheets. That's what they teach in business. That's awful. Yeah, sorry, that seems like a rip-off. Spreadsheets, and then they talk about like marketing at a macro level. They don't, they don't teach you how to like develop leads, how to convert the leads. Like, they don't talk about like the nuts and bolts of running a small business.

12:02They teach you how to become an employee at a large corporation. Looking at spreadsheets or writing spreadsheets. Like, that's it. I can see that. I can see that. Now, it doesn't mean that you don't take the principles and you can't translate them into a small business. Exactly. Because you can, like, especially if you take the right classes, right? You can translate some of that in there.

12:22But at the end of the day, it— for a— for anybody that makes it work, they left college, they get into a small business where they start a small business I guarantee you, you ask them like, how much from what you got out of the 4 years that you got your degree are you using on a day-to-day basis? They're going to tell you like 10% maybe.

12:44Yeah. The rest of it I had to learn on my own because it's not what they teach you. Trial and error. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, I realized that I just don't— I don't like to work alone or even like, you know, I've had a couple of employees here and there and it, you know, how well, you know, 1 in 5 works out for any kind of period of time.

13:02And, uh, it's just, it's, it's tough. And I realize that it's not something I want to take on necessarily. So I find somebody— I found people that are good at that and they're thriving in it. So I try to be a part of that team, right, and bring my skills as opposed to— yeah, and make myself indispensable within the, you know, within the company to where they're— they need me as much as I need them and we could build together, right?

13:22Uh, that's kind of the situation I found now. Yeah. Um, and I've had a few jobs that were like that, but it— one place I quit just because I didn't want to commute an hour and a half each way every day, you know? And that's without traffic. You know, you add traffic, it's 2 hours each way. I'm just like, like, that's, you know, that puts me in over 60 hours a week.

13:44Yeah, just being gone, the travel, just because the travel. Uh, so there's that, and I I don't— I just don't like doing it alone, you know? It's not fun. I don't like working alone either. Yeah, right? Like, I, I lose my productivity if I'm alone. I don't have— like, it's other people around me and talking and like engaging that keeps me driving forward and moving.

14:04Interaction. Yeah. And so if I'm not like working with somebody, dude, I fade out. Like, hardcore fade out. I, I, I lose motivation. Yeah. Like, if I don't have people around me, like, having a— I don't know putting some type of expectation on the day or like what we're doing, it made it really hard for me to stay motivated. You know, there's nobody there waiting for me to do this.

14:26You know, David gets super unmotivated when people are around. He's just like, just leave me alone. I'm going back to my room now. Yeah, I've had to speak 2 times to 2 people. So therefore I need at least a 45-minute recharge before I'm able to do anything else. What? I need a whole day. A whole day? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we all operate in different ways, you know.

14:47We all have different levels of tolerance we can deal with. Yeah. And, uh, you know, it's just— it's finding what we're good at. And I, I tend to pick things that I'm not good at so I can be better at them, even if it's a subtle improvement over time. Yeah. That way I'm, you know, I can feel more confident walking into a situation, whether it's a podcast or— yeah.

15:07Walking around a convention, you know. You know what this dude says to me yesterday as we're walking out, and I paraphrase, he says, I know why my shop sucks. I'm just curious why yours sucks. I think it's because you're lazy. I'm not lazy. I just, uh, I find it hard to focus when I don't have like a hard, hard set goal or like, you know, some kind of timeline.

15:28But then I, then again, I get, I get frustrated with timelines too. I'm like, you need this today? Like, I can't guarantee that. I guarantee it'll be right, but I can't guarantee it'll be today, you know? Right. And so you went to a Bronco shop, right? Tell us a little bit about that transition. And, and maybe I should ask this, the, the— because we tell everybody, don't go get a partner, right?

15:47Whatever you do, don't go get a partner. Yeah. And if you do get a partner, make sure it is documented very, very— oh yeah, on paper. Oh yeah. What's expected, who gets what, and if things go sideways, what do we do, right? Yeah. And so what are the What are the ending, uh, what's the ending story of the shop with the partnership?

16:05Oh, that wasn't a Bronco shop. This was, uh, that was— yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm working at my second Bronco shop now, ironically. But, uh, I got hired at the second one because I had so much experience from the first one. Um, partnership thing I had recently, um, it— what led to it was I was building a truck for a guy, and this guy saw a lot of potential in me, and he was running another He was running another business and turns out he wasn't running it very well, but he put a very good facade up so it looked like he was doing really well.

16:33What, when you say he wasn't doing it very well and put a facade up, what was wrong with the business he was running? I can't really put my finger on it. I just know that, you know, beyond the outward facade of it looking like it was good, he was struggling in different areas. Okay. Financially or? Yeah, he had a high turnover too.

16:53Like he couldn't keep employees and I figured out why. It's just because he'd put unrealistic expectations into things. And then when they didn't work out exactly the way he wanted, he would, uh, he would just drop people like that, you know? Like, yeah, we were in business less than 6 months before he wanted to step out, even though, like, after 3 months I was paying the bills, you know?

17:12I was covering my ass at that point. Yeah, but it was— I wasn't a cash cow in 6 months, so he just wanted to step out. I'm like, that's not how it works, you know? Like, right, we need to be in this together for at least a year before we see the direction that we're gonna go. Are we going to expand? What are we doing?

17:28You know, we need to kind of get a workflow here. Yeah. And, uh, he, uh, he had unrealistic expectations. I already knew what was going to happen as far as like growth, like how many vehicles I can work on at one time and like, you know, my productivity. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, he, uh, it was just— it's where I still haven't quite figured it out.

17:47Um, but I, I did— I have learned that, uh Yeah, he, uh, he commits a lot. That guy committed a lot but wouldn't actually, you know, step up when it was time, you know. Right. And so, so tell us about the ending of the shop then. Was it his partnership walking away that made you close? Was that— no, I won't— for a while, or did it— it went on for another about 6 months, and I, I just decided I didn't want to do it alone, you know.

18:12And there was, there was a lot of factors to running the business that I just wasn't, uh I wasn't comfortable with, or I didn't have enough knowledge about to do it in a successful way moving forward. And I, and I recognized that I, I wasn't— I didn't want to do it alone. Okay. And I couldn't find anybody that would, uh, fit with me to make it work properly.

18:34Right. So I just decided— I was like, this is a job. I own a job, and it's too stressful. I can just go work and, and, and be in a well-equipped business and learn more skills, get better at my skill set when I'm pushed to another level as opposed to just struggling in the situation to try to make ends meet. Right. And that just, I wasn't comfortable with that.

18:59So I happily closed down, sold some equipment and I immediately had another job. Right. Which was actually ended up paying more than I was making by myself because of just the overhead and everything. And I had a little overhead too, right? You would not believe how many people, like, they just don't understand that as a business owner, especially starting out, yeah, you're going to earn less with that business than you are working for somebody else.

19:25Oh yeah, absolutely. And so that's an investment. I— it's like, you know, there was a post in the group last night and it was somebody saying, hey, uh, you know, I'm interested in starting a business, I'm gonna go get a loan. And a lot of people jumped in and said, no, no, no, don't do that, because this, that, and the other. And then somebody else said, hey, I started with $17,000 and I don't even know what you guys are talking about.

19:45It's like, yeah, I get it, but that grind, you know what I'm saying, that, that is weeks without paychecks, right? Like, that's what that equates to. Yes, you can do it, you can make it happen, but it is not nearly as comfortable as having $150,000, $200,000 that you can operate with. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so much I've learned just interacting with the podcast and people in, in, on the, in the groups, and then other, other sources of media, just learning what I didn't know, you know.

20:16Now I know a lot more about what I didn't know, and it's like I'm totally happy and comfortable that I closed the shop because, yeah, I didn't want to keep on a slow grind. It maybe would have gone somewhere, maybe not, you know. It slowed the trajectory down. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't really want to do it in the first place.

20:34I already knew, like, I didn't want to do it alone. And I was— you say that you've picked up some things from the podcast and from, you know, the groups and that kind of thing. What, what kind of things did you pick up that you look back on now and say, hmm, I wish I'd have done that differently? Oh wow, there's a lot of those.

20:52Uh, I probably wouldn't have opened the shop in the first place, just, you know, having learned I would've spent more time learning about the person that I was going into business with before I made a decision to do that. Right. Just because it could've probably avoided the whole thing. Not that I regret it, it was a learning experience. Yeah. But it was, you know, I knew I didn't have the network.

21:15Like, you know, like having 3 customers that want me to build an expensive car is not nearly enough. You know, I thought I had a year's worth of work and I was done with it in 8 months. And then I was out there trying to get more builds and it's just, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of convoluted, you know? Yeah. Well, so, you know, we're at Apex SEMA.

21:35Yeah. And you see all these builds. Yeah. You see all these performance builders. Yeah. And I think that it is— I think it can be misleading. Yeah. To those who are here looking at this as technicians. Oh, yeah. And they think, hey, I want to do that. And then they see it and then they do it and they're like, this sucks. Uh, performance is a hard world to be in.

22:00Custom work is a hard world to be in. What are you seeing? Because, and like, I did the custom thing for a while, right? I did performance work on diesel trucks. Yeah. And, and one of the things that I learned about that is the economy turns down, and if the economy turns down, guess what? So does that business in a very dramatic way.

22:17Yeah. Whereas one of the first things to turn down. Yeah, exactly. Whereas like auto repair it's consistent and it's steady. Yeah. So, you know, I think that— I think it can be so misleading when we see these guys out running these shops. You see them at SEMA with these performance builds. Yeah. Don't crawl underneath them and look. Whatever you do, don't look.

22:37Oh yeah, don't get too close. Yeah, because you're gonna have your heart broken. I'm just telling you, some of this— we were over there, what, yesterday? Some of that stuff, some of those Bluetooth wells, you know. Yes, exactly. Well, but I mean, it does make you question and say, do these guys even understand what a performance business is? Yeah, I realized I didn't, you know, to be like, to be at the level of the shop that I'm at now.

23:01I mean, you know, the guy I work for now was a— We're finally getting into a good roll and here comes Lucas interrupting the episode. Folks, now you know exactly why I hire Shop Marketing Pros to do my shop marketing. It's that I am spastic and all over the place and I lack consistency. But here's the thing, that doesn't work in marketing.

23:23You see, marketing takes 30, 60, sometimes 90 days to be effective. And I was all over the place with my marketing. There was no consistency at all. Caused these waves in my business because I was so inconsistent. And that's why I am so happy to refer Shop Marketing Pros They bring consistency. They are true professionals. I'm going to encourage you, go down to the link below and get your free digital marketing inspection.

23:54Just like we do digital vehicle evaluations for automobiles, they're doing the same thing about your marketing, and they will help you get your business turned around. He owned a— or he managed car dealerships for 25 years. Okay. And he did a lot of research on in the market to figure out what sells, you know, what's going to be profitable, what what can he assemble a team to do and make it quick.

24:16Okay. To where it's, it's, uh, you're not spending a year building a truck, you're spending 6 weeks building a truck. Right. Put a formula together and then, uh, being able to reach clients, people, customers that want that vehicle or wanted a certain way. Like, every truck we build is completely the same but completely different, you know. Let's just check off a box kind of deal.

24:37But he, my boss, understands that. Like, he, he has the part of the business that I don't think I would have ever got there just because of, well, where my motivation's at. And having him been in the car sales for so long, like, he understands how to bring in, you know, higher, higher-end customers, I could say, right? You know, people that want to spend $100,000 to $300,000 on a truck and do it over and over and over again and then make them happy to where they're bringing in their friends.

25:09Yeah. So I mean, it's a layering, you know. Well, and I, I resonate with what you're talking about because here's the thing is, think about this for a minute. He's, he's working on Broncos, so he has a very consistent clientele. Yep. People know to come to him for this product. Yep. Right. I think about Zeke. Everybody takes their Sprinters to Zeke because everybody knows that Zeke's the Sprinter guy.

25:31Yep. Right. Well, this guy, you know, he, he's the Bronco guy and he does really good Bronco work. Yeah. And so everybody knows you have a Bronco. This is one of the places in the country you take the Bronco to. Yeah, we get Broncos shipped in from all over the country, Alaska. And then on top of that, you've got him saying, okay, let's build a system and let's find specialists in each part of the system.

25:52Yeah. To handle that. Yeah. So we can be efficient, productive. So it actually makes money doing this. Yep. Because I mean, some of these hot rod shops, dude, I see them keeping cars for years. Oh yeah. And it's like, oh yeah, I'm building $20,000 to do that, bro. That car's been at your shop for 5 years. Like, you charged him $20,000. That's not a great ratio.

26:11Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, you see it all the time. Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. I have a friend, uh, building a '64 Impala for a guy, and I took it to a buddy of mine's paint shop. Well, it's been there 2 and a half years. Granted, the car had to be backhauled. Yeah, still shouldn't take 2.5 years, right? But I'm not in that shop working.

26:28I don't know what's happening behind the closed doors. I don't— there's very little in hot rods, auto repair, performance work that should take 2 years. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. I mean, we can take a— we can build a Bronco from frame to, you know, well, they're painted already, obviously, but, you know, 6 weeks it's out the door at most. Yeah, I mean, really, we could have one together in a month.

26:50Wasn't the quality control and finishing it out usually takes another 40 hours just to make sure it drives right, you know. So tell me what— give me a little bit of a rundown of what's being done to the Broncos. I mean, are we rewiring them front to back or we— oh yeah, well, the new builds are all brand new everything. I mean, it's brand new body, brand new harnesses.

27:08I mean, literally every single part is brand new, which doesn't mean they're good. It just means it's new. So you have to make everything fit. I'm the service manager. We're taking— I take in older Broncos. Okay. Or ones that get restored. Okay. You know, we'll take a Bronco, take the body off, put new drivetrain in it. Some of them get new harnesses, some of them get new axles.

27:28It's kind of individual basis on those ones. But he didn't do that before I started because he didn't have a guy that could pull it in and look at it and figure out exactly what it needs, you know, within a reasonable amount of time. I can, you know, make a hit list within, you know, an hour or go drive it look over the thing, be like, this is what we have to do.

27:47And then he can turn around to the customer and, you know, sell, sell it, get it approved, right? Yeah. And some of them, we just, we're like, no, we're not going to do that one. It's too rotten, you know, or whatever it is. Yeah. But, but he always, he won't bring a car in from a customer he knows, well, can't afford it either.

28:02Right. Like it's almost more expensive to restore a truck than it is to just build it. Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, it absolutely is. And so when you talk about putting new powertrains in them, what, what powertrains going back in them? Mostly Ford crate motors with power packs, like, you know, Gen 3, Gen 4 Coyotes. We're doing Godzillas, brand new Godzillas with 3/8 Whipple.

28:26Oh, slay. Holy cow. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We do a lot of blueprint engines too. Okay. Like if somebody wants a traditional Bronco, we just buy an intake, little 306 with the carburetor on it because some people want the nostalgia of a carburetor. Right. Okay. Yeah, not I. Yeah, no, I mean, I'll pass. Yeah, I mean, where I'm at. Yeah, I don't want to have to reset my choke twice a year.

28:50Forget that, you know. Yeah, exactly. So a little lazy. And like, I, I mean, I like carbureted engines, but fuel injection is just like, hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. I want to tune it with my laptop. I don't want to turn it with a screwdriver, you know. Yeah, I do a lot of that too. I learned how install fuel injection systems on older vehicles, make them work right.

29:09Right. Which is cool because integrating the old technology or new technology into older vehicles really just makes them so much better. You know, like I have a '54 Caddy that won't stay cool. It overheats constantly. Look in there and they have two heater cores and it's all hosed backwards. So fix the hosing. Nobody knows how to do that. Not nobody. There's of us out there that do that.

29:30There's very few that even think about it. Yeah, exactly. Some of the— I mean, I hate to talk smack, but some of this custom work, yeah, it's awful. Oh, it's bad. It's terrible. Yeah, well, I mean, there's plenty of things I won't put my name on. I made it work right, but I'm like, you know, that's it. It, it works. Take a bubble gum, yeah, Band-Aid over top of the bubble gum, the duct tape holding either side of the Band-Aid down.

29:54Yeah, I'm not afraid to say no. I'm just like, I'm not going to work on that, sorry. Is it, is it worth your time? Is it worth my time, uh, for, you know, you're not going to get the outcome you want if you spend whatever it is. You can spend twice as much as you think you're going to and still not be happy.

30:09So I think what you should do, you should go into performance. Nuts. I didn't drive him nuts. It's like, yeah, he, he should start a hot rod shop. Well, and I mean, the customers that we deal with have a higher expectation too. Like, a lot of people, I get their car repaired, be like, cool, it drives right, it's quiet, nice, you know.

30:25People that get customs, they're like, this isn't exactly perfect, or the trim's like whatever. Like, yeah, they're so picky, but they pay for it too. Like, you know, they, uh, they definitely, uh, have to come out of pocket when it's, uh, what they want, right? So for sure, it's, it's just a— it's, it's a different world. Yeah, I, I think that especially when it comes to that stuff, I've seen a lot of clients get burned over folks that act like they know what they're talking about and continue to indicate— ah, you can't even see it.

30:57Good. Uh, not worried about that part. Don't ice in your laptop. It's his laptop, it's not mine. Who cares? Be fine, it'll be all right. But you know, just like, uh, maybe a month ago we saw a situation where a good client of mine, good friend of mine, had a couple hot rods and some folks wanted to take it to a car show..

31:17And so they loaded it up, they take it to the car show. Yeah. And he kept calling them back because the deal was, is like, hey, you can take these cars. It was another shop said, you can take these cars to the car show, I'm getting ready to sell them. Yeah. So like, if you want to take them and clean them up, get them detailed, cool.

31:33And then for the, for the taking it to the car show, you detail it, pay for it, we're good. And so, uh, they called and said, hey, uh, you want us to, uh, tune on this thing a little bit? It's not running just right. And he said, yeah, yeah, I guess, whatever. And so one thing after another, they take it and supposedly had it tuned somewhere down the rabbit hole.

31:56Exactly. And it turns into this whole thing. And so one, one's a vet, the vet ends up blown up, had a 472 in it, right? And it was, oh well, it was that shop, it was this, this person did this, that person did that. No ownership of it whatsoever. Oh no, right? Like, and then he started asking questions saying, hey, can you tell me what happened?

32:18Can you show me why you think that? Can you show me why you believe that? Oh, it just needs an engine. It just needs an engine. It just needs an engine. And so slowly we deduced that it was like they decided they were going to joy drive the cars around, right? Oh yeah. And so they took the cars out, they're riding them around because they're a nice car, they're a slick car.

32:36There are so many hot rod builders and so many shops. Yeah. That are not professional enough to handle that responsibility, or they don't even have the insurance to cover the car in the first place, you know. Yeah, absolutely. I, I don't know, man. I— there's a lot of shit shops. But what— so what are you going to do? You, you're not going into the hot rod business?

32:55I don't know how you make money other than systemize it like, like Duda over there. Systemize it and just do one, one kind of vehicle, and this is the packaged Pick a package. That's it. Yeah, exactly. We just do it over and over and over again. That's the only way to do it. Yeah. Many shops are like, we're going to customize everything.

33:16No. No. It's awful. Yeah. I have friends that do it and, you know, they're struggling. They struggle all the time. And I have buddies that just work on Hondas and Toyotas like Becky. Where? Yeah. They're killing it because they have a system. They do. Within a certain range. We're like Zeb, he's like, I only work on this and newer. Yeah, it makes sense, right?

33:38You know, I've said tons of people, I've said tons of people, but it works, right? So you find a formula and stay with it and only make small variances outside of that. I've, I've, uh, again, I have another friend that's been doing it for 20 years and he's barely making any money, works constantly, but now he's just getting back to where he's doing classic restorations, customs.

33:56It's putting the cars back to original. You know, that way there's less variance there. The parts are more available. You're not changing a bunch of things. You're just putting it back to the way it should be. Right. And then more people like it because it's an original car. The more you customize something, the less people are interested in it because it's outside of their taste.

34:14Yeah. You know, so it's, it's just, uh, there's so many variables to it. And I realized that like if I was going to be successful at it, I couldn't do it alone. And I want to find somebody who had that variable down, and, uh, I had the clients already too, you know. That's a big part of it, right? Yeah. So yeah, no, I'm happy with where I'm at.

34:35I've got, I've got some young guys under me I can teach. They're, they're sponges. They make little mistakes, I don't, you know, I don't rail on them for it. I just get them to explain to me why they made that decision to make that mistake, right? Back it up, figure out where you went wrong. Change course, walk through it. Yeah. Yeah. And like, make sure to torque everything.

34:56Well, tell me this then. Like, do you feel like— because we've talked a little bit about this recently— do you feel like that older car, that custom work is more enticing to the young technicians? It's more engaging, it's more enjoyable than getting thrown into the dealership meat grinder, right? I think from my perspective, I think it is, yeah. I think because you're like, oh, these are cool cars right off the bat.

35:20Whereas if you go to a dealership here, you're on the low end of the totem pole for a while. Whereas at like an independent custom shop, you know, they might get their hands into, you know, something that they've never seen, or their dad had one or whatever. But there's— it's really hard. I mean, you go and scratch one of these cars and it's just like you gotta repaint the whole car, right?

35:42Kind of deal. Oh yeah, $30,000, $50,000 paint jobs. Yeah, for sure. So there's a— even then, beyond that, way beyond that, the client is so upset about it. Oh yeah, right. Like, that, that is a big deal. Yeah, you probably won't see them again. Yeah. So I mean, if you ain't in court with them, like, yeah, you might see them in court.

36:00Exactly, exactly. You know, um, that's, that's a nuanced question really. Like, I, you know, I wish I could just throw young guys in the shop be like, here, like, like building a rat rod is good for a young guy because then they can scratch it or they can just put random parts on there and they can figure out how to make it work.

36:17Yeah. But you can't really sell rat rods to everybody. A rat rod is specific to the person who wants it. Yeah. You know, the way they want it. Right. So I find that the younger guys that already have, like, you know, they inherited a Mustang or a Camaro from their dad and they've already learned how to kind of work on the car, take old stuff, tinker with it.

36:34Yeah, kind of have a little bit of a better understanding of the way the older technology works. But that's— I mean, that's such a small slice of the market that it's— I mean, it's almost irrelevant. Yeah. Well, but I mean, like, I grew up tinkering with things. Sure. That's what converted in my love to automobiles and working on cars and doing the things that we do, right?

36:55Yeah. And so if we can use that as a tool Sure. To get the younger kids engaged and involved, let them tinker first and build that love for mechanical things. Yeah, I believe that's a pathway to get more technicians into the market. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's not— it's the opportunity. I mean, most young people don't have the opportunity to go mess around on some old vehicle that it doesn't really matter if they break it right away or not, you know?

37:24Yeah, yeah. That's You know, I think part of going to tech school is they— I think they should put all— put kids or young— not kids, but, you know, youngins as it were on like, here, rebuild this old lawnmower. Here, take this motorcycle apart and put it back together. It's not— nobody's going to drive it, nobody's going to ride it, but they understand some of the mechanical ideas and, and just concepts involved with, you know, simpler machines.

37:50I mean, I've worked on things going back to the, you know, 1920s, and they're just— the ingenious way they do this stuff in, in an analog way. Like, some people can't even understand it now because it's so simple, it's complicated. Yeah, I remember, uh, seeing the wood box batteries. You know what I'm talking about? Oh yeah, it's just so cool. You don't even— yeah, the, the concept of that now is insane.

38:14Yeah. And, and, you know, we talk about electric, uh, trucks We're talking about electric vehicles now. Yeah. And then, you know, you go to New York City in the 1900s and they had battery-powered electric vehicles. Yeah. All those years ago. Yeah. Big wooden boxes built underneath the truck. It couldn't haul but like 2,000 pounds because the batteries weighed so much. Right, right.

38:34But I mean, it was such cool technology, especially for the time. Sure. Right. The fact that somebody thought it up and developed it. Yeah. Oh yeah, man, I, I think that's where for me it all turns into the positive, like, environment where somebody young could take this and grow and do something with it, is because if you see that stuff and you are a mechanical mindset human being, you see it, you're like, whoa, I want to know how that works.

39:03I'm going to go put my hands on it. I'm going to go start tinkering. It sparks the passion. Exactly. Yeah. And then you, you don't get out of your blood. See, he's never worked on anything. So he doesn't have it in his blood, right? I mean, did you ever tinker when you were a kid? No. No. Do you have the opportunity to?

39:20I mean, I probably could have, but it wasn't that interesting to me. What was it? That's a great question. What was interesting to you when you were a child? Yeah, I'm curious. I mean, the performance aspect of it was cool. Yeah. You wanted your little car to go fast. Sure. Corner well, that kind of thing. Right. But that was about it, driving them.

39:41Driving them, yeah. But yeah, I mean, the cars, a Camry today, a new Camry today will outperform a '70 Chevelle SS in every aspect, braking, acceleration, handling, everything. You know, fuel economy. But it's a Camry, you know. Nobody aspires to have a Camry instead of a Chevelle. I mean, not nobody, but— I don't know, look at Boston. I mean, like, Braxton would love— uh, you could go get him an old, like, Chevrolet, uh, you pick up a Nova, whatever you want.

40:11Yeah. And he would be miserable driving. Yeah. He would complain the entire time. Oh yeah, it's hot, it's noisy, it's uncomfortable, it rattles. Yeah. I don't like the way it feels. He's looking at me outside the window. And then you go get him— you get him like a new car, and Braxton's like, heck yeah, this is awesome. But like, he's too bougie for something that's like a— I mean, even a little bit rough, right?

40:34Yeah. Like if it's 2 degrees too warm inside, this kid's complaining about it, right? I've seen that people order a, you know, $200,000 custom vehicle and they get in the thing and they're like, it's loud, it's this, that. I'm like, that's what you asked for. That's what you ordered. You ordered this. I mean, did you, did you even know you wanted it or did you want the idea of it?

40:53Right. You know, so really So my boss is really good about that. Like, here, go test drive this truck before you order one, you know, like, make sure you want this thing for sure, because we've built trucks and they come back, well, this or that, or, you know, it's bouncy. I'm like, it's a frickin Bronco, right? That's what it's got, a 4-inch lift, you know, giant tires.

41:12Like, you know, it— make sure you want it first. Most people already understand that. But so the old CUCVs, you know, I want to say CUCV. They were military trucks and they were like the K-15 through K-3500s. And they turned them in like same with Suburban and everything else. They turn them into and they call them CUCVs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 6.2s and 6.5s, right?

41:36Primarily 6.2s. I know, like what a piece of junk. Yeah. But you can pour anything in them though. Yeah. So I had a buddy that that's all he did. Oh yeah. He just built those and he would build one right after another. And sell them for $30,000 a pop. Yeah. And you know, you buy them at auction for $1,500. Yep. He'd spend $10,000 on it, he'd turn a decent profit.

41:57But same thing, those people would buy them and they would say, well yeah, but it's making this sound. Well yeah, but it doesn't always start when it's cold. Well yeah, like bro, it didn't start when it was cold when it was new. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, it just doesn't work that way. Sure. But it also tells you how far we've come with the automobile.

42:14In the past 40 years. Yeah, like we've completely forgotten what it was like to drive a 1980 Chevrolet pickup, right? Oh yeah, people, people, uh, people don't remember. Yeah, I just see in the background, I see the reflection behind me. That guy, awesome guy. He is, he is. Oh yeah, it's— I have a buddy in New Mexico that builds just C10s. That's all he does.

42:39He buys really clean like late '50s, early '60s C10s, blows them completely apart, puts them all back together. Right. Takes him about a month by himself. Yeah, but he has a formula and they just come out killer. Air ride and all the new brakes and all the, you know, some are fuel injected, some are not. See, I can't even, I can't even start with that because I would just get into LMC and spend all my money, right?

43:02I'd be broke. I would not have any, like the fact you can order all those parts. Yeah, that is really cool. Well, now the thing is finding trucks that have, or cars that have, all the original parts, a complete vehicle that has all the OE stuff on it. Yeah, it's harder to find. I mean, like, yeah, sure, you can buy all parts for a C10, but what's the quality, right?

43:20Very good. Yeah, so the, the more original a vehicle you can find, it's just start with body panels, especially body panels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, bodywork is not— to me. I'm like, I smell that. I'm like, no thanks. I, I don't know. All the old-timers used to let them, and, and they'd let them, and they'd paint them with no respirator, no nothing.

43:45And yeah, yeah, they're all loopy now. Yeah. You ever talk to them, one of those guys? Yeah, they're nuts. I agree with that. Some of them are just somewhere else. Yeah, right. I think that's what we're all headed for, except for for you. Let's stay away from it. You're gonna be dead way before you get to that point. Yeah, try to avoid the toxic stuff.

44:06I, I built a, uh, '59 Ranchero, pulled it out of a field, and it was all these different colors. So I started sanding it down. I took it down to bare metal. It had lead all over this thing. And as soon as I figured I had lead on it, I was like, I'm gonna stop sanding this. And I used aircraft stripper to get the paint off because I could contain it.

44:22It wasn't, you know, lead dust in the air. Yeah. Yeah, uh, they clear coated it. It looked killer, but it had all these weird lead patches everywhere. That's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah, it was, you know, each one's kind of unique. Yeah, but, uh, I, I don't, uh, I'm more, I'm more of a drivability guy. I like to make it run right, make sure it drives right, you know.

44:41I can put it together, but like finishing off, making sure there's no leaks or rattles or things like that, that's kind of where I'm at. What do you think the, the next, say, 5, 10 years of your career looks like? On a pretty much steady course where it's at, I mean, 25, 30 years from now, I mean, almost nobody's going to have muscle cars and hot rods just because the— I think the fuel situation.

45:04Yeah. And the, the progression of technology and safety, and they're going to make it to where like you wouldn't be able to get a car from the '70s and older on the highway because we're like, nope, it's not safe enough, it doesn't stop fast enough, it doesn't have airbags, crumple zones. Yeah, it'll be a big safety issue in the next couple decades moving forward.

45:23I really hope so. I, I really do. Yeah, because I mean, take a, take a '60 Impala and run into an '09 Impala. Guy in the '09 is going to walk away. The guy in the '60 is going to get his legs cut off. Yeah, you know, it— and that's just where I see it going. But, you know, and, and then the cost of these custom cars is just going to keep going higher and higher.

45:44And less and less people are going to afford them. And I think the industry is going to slow down over time because there's going to be a glut of cars coming as all these, you know, boomers can't drive their cars and start selling them. Like right now, you can buy a lot of really nice custom cars that are built in the '30s, not built in the '30s, but cars from the '30s and '40s that guys our age don't want them.

46:05We want muscle cars, you know, we want stuff from the '60s and early '70s. So there's all these older, you know, cars from the '30s, Dick Tracy-looking cars that just sit there. You can get them for cheap, you know. You can get a Model A, a perfectly good Model A running car right now for $10,000, $15,000 if you search. They are really popular in our area, the '30s, the '40s, stuff like that.

46:27That's demograph too. Yeah, for sure. '57 Bel Air, dude, like that. Oh yeah, that's the crim— any day, all day, man. It was a sexy car. Car. You've got to admit, they— yeah, they are sexy cars. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Probably one of the sexiest cars ever built, right? I'm just gonna be real with you. Yeah. What would be your favorite?

46:47What would you— Bel Air. I, I like GT. I like the A-bodies, the GTOs, the '68 to '72 GM cars, any of the Cutlass, Chevelle, GTO, Chevelle. Yeah, said that. Then I like the— I like the '44 Deluxe. I don't know why. The little tail light on those. Yeah, dude, the round curves, you know. Dude, that's a— that is a pretty car too.

47:10But really, I'm just— I'm kind of jaded. They all kind of look like the same thing. I'm like, it's either crappy or not, you know. I don't know. I mean, I think the Grand National was a cool car. We were talking about those the other day. Oh yeah, Grand National is actually a pretty slick car. I like to— I like the G-body cars too.

47:23Those are good. They drive well. I've had a few of them. Not Grand Nationals, But Monte Carlos and El Caminos are the G-body platform. Yeah, they drive good. You know, you don't see that once millennials get a little bit older. They're in their 50s and 60s. They're not going to start looking for '90s cars. Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. So it's going to shift.

47:44You know, like I have a lot of guys and we're in our 40s and they're looking for, you know, '84 Nissans and stuff. And because that's what they all got crushed. Yeah, they did. Are, are rusted. Well, yeah, rusted, but a lot of them could have been preserved, but they got crushed with the cash flow problems. It's nice, wiped them all out.

48:03I've seen E36s getting crushed, things like that, like twin turbo Nissan cars getting crushed. Yeah, just because they're like, oh, I can get a, you know, rebate on a new car, and they go and get like a Kia Sorento or something. You're like, right, would you ever do that? I don't know, it just doesn't make any sense to me. But I mean, like, they're not car guys.

48:21Yeah, right. They don't care. It doesn't— that's what I'm saying. Like Braxton, for instance, right? He doesn't care. Yeah, like, it just looks like another car to him. Does it serve its purpose? Yep. You know, do the ends justify the means? I, I, I don't think he would even think about an old car like that if he saw it getting crushed. He's like, oh look, it's a rusty piece of junk, send it away.

48:40Yeah, yeah. But I'm talking like, like late '80s Japanese cars, even some of the weird ones, because you could like, you could pick up a late '80s, early '90s Honda Prelude with four-wheel steering. Love those. Yeah, right, with four-wheel steering. Um, the engine wasn't that great, but man, they would, they would handle really, really nicely for front-wheel drive car, four-cylinder. They're all gone.

49:12Every single one of them gone. They all got crushed. The ones that didn't rust out. Yeah. But even the ones that you could restore, they're gone. There's no market for them. They've been completely wiped out. With the '70s cars, I think at least during the Cash for Clunkers, people were like, well, I can't get rid of this. It's a '68 GTO. Like, I'm not going to go junk this.

49:33Yeah, but your '75 Monte Carlo crushed it. Yeah, the '91 Prelude SI. Gone. Had one of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree with you. Like, anything from the— what they call it— the malaise era of '70s cars, like your '77 Cordobas and your, you know, just giant ugly boats, people crushed them all day. Oh yeah. And now there's actually— there's a demand for it, right?

49:58There was so few of them that people were in it, you know, their childhood or whatever, looking for whatever it was, you know. Their dad had a, uh, '76 Monte Carlo. Just a horribly ugly car. Yeah, yeah, they were awful, but they drove great, I guess. I mean, I don't know. I can't— no, I've driven one. No, no, they don't. They make great dirt track cars.

50:22No, yeah, there you go. There you go. I'm down with that. I mean, that's about the only good use for them, I think. Yeah, yeah, do roundy rounds till you get smashed and build another one. You You know, I, I am with you, but I don't know that the next generation of automobiles was really something that could be restored in the same way that we restore cars now, right?

50:44Like the '50s, '60s, and '70s cars were a very different animal. Or body on frame, that was different. Half the parts, I mean, half, literally half the components involved. Yeah, I mean, and think of how many, how many components are in a, even a car from the early 2000s. There's, I mean, literally half the parts in a car that's 30 years older.

51:04And good luck finding some of those parts, you know, especially some of the weird, like nobody's looking for parts for a '77 New Yorker. Right. I'm like, they got crushed. Yeah. But yeah, it's, I think it depends on the car too. Like some cars have a very strong following. Yeah. A lot of the Toyota wagons from the '80s. Oh yeah, dude. Yeah, people love those things.

51:27Like, I think— really? Yeah, the Corona wagons and whatnot. Oh man, people build them into drift cars and put stances on them. I think they're ugly as sin, but like, yeah, that's my opinion. They're cool cars, but I like— I just don't see them. Some of the old Volvos, same thing. Oh yeah, oh yeah, the old Volvo, sure. Yeah, I like me a good turbo wagon, but like, they're, you know, boxy but good.

51:49What was it saying, right? No, I'm gonna go get me one of those, uh, Chevrolet wagons. The one with the fake wood paneling on the side of it from the '90s, right? Those are the ones that I remember from my childhood. Like a Buick Century wagon or something. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm gonna get. Oh yeah, I'm gonna pick you up in the airport from— or like a Roadmaster wagon.

52:07Yeah, Roadmaster. Those are cool, they came with an LT1 in them. Yeah, dude. Yeah, yeah, we've worked on a couple of them. Yeah, I have too. That was a piece of shit. They're a pain in the ass. They're a pain to work on. With the Omni Spark distributor on the front. Yeah, get out of here. I've worked on a couple Trans Ams that had that.

52:24I'm like, why would you put the distributor in the water pump? Like, yeah, it doesn't make sense. Those were rough, dude. That was an awful engine. Of all the engines they ever made, that was probably the worst one to work on. I've come across quite a few of the hot rods that were built in the '90s that have those in them, and these guys don't know how to work on them.

52:41You know, there's no spark. I'm like, well, you're Your OmniSpark is probably full of water. You know, they spray a bunch of WD-40 down the tube and it starts, you know, and it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Yeah. Or they put parts on it that don't work. It won't accelerate. I look at it, some Chinese TPS, and I'm like, did you even— Yeah, that's what it's like.

53:02That's the issue is that, I mean, you could still diagnose them. Like, that's what I learned on is those kind of vehicles. Yeah, you could diagnose them, but then finding good parts for them. Oh yeah. Is really difficult because everybody's trying to sell you like the cheapest Chinese piece of crap. Oh yeah. Really? Man, I don't know that this will work if I install it.

53:22Yeah, exactly. Well, and a lot of electrical components, you can find some type of, you know, information to test it, you know, make sure it operates within range or like, I mean, I mean, that's in forums now. It's not like it's not even at service information. It's where— Oh yeah. No, you have to like dig for that information. Yeah, sure. I figured out through, you know, all these LS motors with the knock sensors down in the engine, you gotta like, I test them before I even install it because I got tired of installing them and throwing a knock code immediately.

53:51It was just like, why would I not test it before I stick it in? And then you get brand name parts, ACDelco or whatever, that don't work. You go through 6, 7 sets. You gotta do GM long number and you gotta put the harness in it. Yep. Like if you don't do that. Yeah. And forget it. Yeah, they'll just come right back.

54:08Do you experience the same struggles with part quality? Oh yeah, typical automotive. Oh yeah, I, I don't expect it to be right, right out of the box. I expect it to fail, and hopefully it doesn't, right? Like, uh, we had a spat of, uh, Ford transmissions that were being rebuilt somewhere, and half the solenoids in these things— we had— we'd plug them into the PowerPaks or the, you know, aftermarket shift controllers, and You can hear the solenoids freaking out immediately as soon as you hook up the battery.

54:33They're just click, click, click, click, click. And it's the combination of the controller and the solenoid not saying the same thing. You know, one's either way out of range or the other one is trying to activate it, but the, uh, it's not throwing the right voltage at the right time. Or it's just like combination of things. But yeah, I don't expect electrical parts to work until they do.

54:54Yeah, so buy 3 of them and make sure you get one right. In, in the hot rod world or the aftermarket world, I feel like we have a much bigger problem with them saying, no, it works, this is a you problem, this is something you're doing. I feel like there's a whole lot more— like, if you call one of these vendors and ask for a warranty, I typically think that they're pushing it back on the— because, and I guess because there's so many DIYers that don't understand and don't know how to test it, well, that's the go-to response.

55:22There's That's true. Usually when I call a vendor or manufacturer about a quality part, you know, or say a bad part, whatever. But because I work in a big shop and I have lots of experience, I know exactly what I'm talking about when I talk to them. We can actually have a dialogue and I'll get parts replaced pretty quick because they're like, okay, you're not just some guy in your garage.

55:43For sure. For sure. You actually know what you're doing. But I can see how the pushback would happen immediately. Like, oh yeah, you did it wrong. You installed it on your car. You don't know what you're doing. Yeah, no, I mean, I'll take scope captures and send them. Sure. They'll say, well, I don't know what any of this means. Yeah, yeah, I just asked for somebody else.

56:00Yeah, I don't know, many of these places don't have anybody that does know. Yeah, you know, uh, like, I, I have to talk to Holley a lot because I have problems with their parts. Uh, and it's not the guy I'm talking to, it's a manufacturing issue. Like, we were buying Not to throw Holley under the bus, but, uh, we had a problem with, uh, so we buy the, the new timing covers for the 7.3s so we can relocate all the, the pulleys, right?

56:25Well, they're not drilling the accessory holes in the— like, it has the boss, but there's no hole with— like, I'm not going to drill and tap the thing. It's supposed to come like that. Yeah, so like 3, 4, 5 later, I get one that's done correctly. Like, really? Okay, these are $800 and they should have— it should be right out of the box, right?

56:42Should check Yeah, yeah. Where's the quality control on that? Yeah, I, I've, uh, yeah, I could go on about that. That fuel system, we— the, the— what is it they call their new fuel injection system? Sniper 2. Yeah, yeah, dude. We— I've been in a— yeah, well, we put one in a Chevelle. Yeah, right. We don't do any old work. It was for a close friend of mine.

57:05I was like, let's just do it, take care of him. We must went through 15, 16 parts. The controller, the little— like, we, we had the Bluetooth option so you can control with this phone, and they're like, they— those don't ever work. Yeah, they take down the whole system, so we need to send you the controllers. Like, we only wanted this. I'm like, yeah, sorry, it doesn't work.

57:26Thanks. Yeah, this is great. Why do you even sell it? Why do you have it as an option? But I mean, like, dude, we went through probably almost 6 weeks of replace a part, troubleshoot, replace a part, troubleshoot, replace a part, troubleshoot. Really? And we're not just talking about one problem. Yeah, we're talking about we started with one problem, we rectified that problem, and then we ran into another problem.

57:46We rectified that problem, we ran into another problem, we rectified that. Sure. And by the time it was said and done, I was like, I'm never installing another one of these. Sure. And it wasn't an ability thing, right? It was one bad part after another, and they acknowledge that. Yeah. Oh yeah. We even said like, hey, are we like, are we screwing something up here?

58:07Like, we're like, no, no voltage, the whole nine yards. And they're like, no, it's pretty common. Yeah. Oh, that makes me feel good. Yeah, no, it is. Like, I've had them, I've installed them in the leaky injector right away. Turn the key on, it's dumping fuel, right? Get it, take the injector out, tap it a couple times, put it back in, it stops doing it.

58:25And like, you're like, well, it needs a new injector, but you know, at least I know what it was. Things like that. Yeah, it's, uh, yeah, like I said, I don't expect parts to work until they do. I expect them to be bad out of the box, which is just sad. It is. I never had that thought process 5 years ago. I would have never, like, assumed every sensor was not good until it is, you know?

58:45Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a completely different world. Yeah, completely different world. Most of those snipers you have to tune with a laptop. You're gonna have the software and, like, actually know what you're looking at to get in there. And I had one that had a put on a Jeep. It was a small block Chevy, right? And it had slightly lower compression in one cylinder.

59:01Yeah. So it would cause an irregular pulse pattern past the oxygen sensor, make it surge, right? It took, took me like a week messing with this thing to figure out— like, I knew that I had like 90 PSI in this one cylinder, the rest are 120, but I didn't know that that subtle of a difference would cause havoc on the system. Yeah.

59:20And finally I was like, okay, well, it surges at idle, it's the engine's fault, not not the sniper's fault, but we went through so much stuff to try to figure that out. Well, but I mean, we ended up putting the oxygen sensor on the other side. Yeah, and it ran fine. Well, but I mean, just think about that for a second though, right?

59:35Yeah, I mean, how do they prepare for that? Like, whereas with a new automobile— automobile, they take all of those things into account. Sure. And they start tuning them out to solve all of those issues so it creates an amazing customer experience. Yeah, they put a ton of work into it to make it do what it does. Yeah. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah.

59:53Yeah. And, and so with that, every— there's so many variables, right? Like how many different configurations does that system work on? And so come on now. Right. You expect them to be able to work their way through all that? It's impossible. No, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a— it's a generic thing too. Like unless, unless you actually know how to tune or understand the fundamentals of that engine or the variations in engines, and it's really hard to get to a satisfactory point.

1:00:21I mean, I've had a lot of people install not just Snipers but Edelbrocks and Phytex or whatever, and they're like, oh, it's fine. I'm like, you're lucky then, because 9 out of 10 of them, I find they take some serious fiddling with to get to run right. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, well, I can't charge customer 30 hours of tuning when it's the Sniper's fault or their engine's weird or whatever, you know.

1:00:43I mean, I don't know, like, they wanted a custom car. Yeah, they wanted custom features. You get a custom invoice. Exactly. Well, I mean, you about have to, right? Yeah. Like, is it even optional? I don't know. I mean, I see all these performance shops and what are they doing? I think— I don't know, for a minute, they're, they're, they're— I don't know how they make this stuff.

1:01:07They're not making money. No, no, right? That's why they all go out of business. And everybody wants to work on custom cars because it's— or they're charging half a million for a car. I mean, I see it all the time. I mean, I've like— did you— some of these cars over here at SEMA are just— I mean, an ungodly amount of money goes into these, man hours.

1:01:26And that's what I'm saying, but they'll look underneath them, and then there's only like 3 guys in the whole country that will buy that car, right? Yeah, you know, but I mean, even then The quality is bad on those cars. Not all of them, not all of them, but there are some really, uh, questionable— that's the buyer beware situation right there. Like, you remember the— if you don't know what you're looking at, don't buy it, you know?

1:01:45Did you see the deal with Brad Eskam that owned Fast Fuel Systems? Did you see the deal with that Ford truck? No. So he buys this Ford truck, he sends this Ford truck to one of these big diesel shops that's got this huge name known all over the country. —had a TV show, all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, dude. They kept the truck for like 2 years.

1:02:03The truck came back and like it was undrivable. It couldn't be driven. This guy's out of Utah. Yeah. And like it was in unbelievable condition. No way it could have been driven. No way it was going to run. No way it was going to be reliable. Yeah. And eventually just went and bought another truck. Yeah. But he created this whole campaign to talk smack about him because that's just how Brad is, right?

1:02:25But like, you go look this up and he was right. I mean, the panel gaps were insane. Mechanical repairs were insane. Absolute terrible quality. Like everything about it was bad. The interior looked terrible. Yeah, it just makes you say like, how long are we going to do this? Right? Like, how are we going to— I've had customers bring me vehicles that other shops have built and I just kind of go over it and I'm like, I can't.

1:02:51Can't do it. Sorry. Yeah. Well, not once I— once I touch it, I'm married to the thing. It's my— everything's my fault after that point. And that's it. Like, I'm just not going to start going down the road that I— I didn't make all the potholes in that road. I'm not doing it. You know, at this point, everything's already our fault anyway because we're shop owners.

1:03:08So yeah, I don't know what to tell you. Like, that's just like that. So yeah, that's funny. Anything you want to share with any technicians or anybody? Any feedback? Oh yeah, yes and no. I mean, I'm— this whole thing's overwhelming, you know. Yeah, it seems it's great, but, uh, you know, pick, pick what you're gonna do. Uh, for all the young guys out there, just find something you like to do and get really good at it.

1:03:33Yeah, and make yourself indispensable. Amen, buddy. Yeah, amen. If they, if, if, uh, if they absolutely need you in the shop, then you'll always be wanted somewhere. Amen, brother. Thank you for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Changing the Industry podcast. If you enjoy the show, do us a favor and leave us a review on your favorite podcast player, and don't forget to set it to automatically download the latest episode.

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