From Guesswork to Process: Modern Diagnostic Strategies for Auto Repair Shops [RR 1093]

0:00This is the Automotive Repair Podcast Network. Hi, everybody. Carm Capriato, Remarkable Results Radio at the TST Big Event, the 23rd year. We're here in Tarrytown, New York, just north of New York City. 3 incredible trainers today, and believe it or not, I've had a chance to interview each of them. The last one who just got off the stage is with me, Ken Zanders from Dorman Training.

0:27But before we jump into that, don't forget about our podcast listening app, the Automotive Repair Podcast Network app. Just go to our website, there's all kinds of links to get to it. You don't need Spotify or Apple, although they're really good listening apps. This one brings all the shows we do together. You can share, you can look at the show notes, you can watch video, you can even download if you're not anywhere near Wi-Fi or you don't have digital access, and you could literally download them.

0:53And you can create playlists. But anyway, great way to listen to all the content that we produce, 7 podcasts a week. And don't forget, we facilitate wisdom. We're always pushing the professional side of our automotive repair network. Thanks to our great sponsors who are always here for us and here for you too. So please check them out. Hey, stay ahead of the curve with NAPA Autocare's newest auto tech initiatives, Fast Track Assessments, Accelerator Immersive Training, and Tech Assist Smart Support.

1:24The future of technician training is here. Connect with your local NAPA representative for more information. Hey, let's face it, your shop management system is the most critical tool in your shop, and NAPA TRACS will move your shop into the SMS fast lane with on-site training, 6 days a week support, and local representation. Find NAPA TRACS on the web at napatracs.com. I am here with Ken Zanders.

1:54Hello, Ken. Hi, Carm. How are you? I am great. Thank you. We've done one or two multiple interviews. I just can't remember one or two in the past. I remember having dinner with you out on a summer night. Yes. Where were we? In Philly, maybe? I think that was Philadelphia. In Philly. Yes. Just a great time with you. I've seen your career over the years.

2:13Way back in the day, I was an AC Delco distributor, so I remember, if you will, the Delco training centers. Yes. And you spent what, 8 to 10 years with that? Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty close to that, about 8 to 10 years. Really enjoyed the time there, but the travel had kind of gotten to me. My parents were ill and I had to make some decisions for the family and said, you know, it's time to kind of get grounded a little bit and be at home more.

2:37So you became more of an independent? Yes. Got it. So we interviewed Andrew Fisher. The whole episode was about you. Not 100%, but of course, I know that he looks at you as a very important mentor to him. We talked about that. Yeah, we've got a little bit of a history. His grandfather used to come to my classes. Andrew at the time was a very young person, and it's a testimony when you're able to touch someone in a certain way where it builds their confidence in becoming one of the team in terms of the automotive industry.

3:15Well, he almost started to cry on stage when he mentioned your name. And what I've learned about Andrew, he's so humble and he's a giver. And I think he learned that from you. I would hope that would be the case, because if we can spread that message to people, I think it can be a benefit for us all. So what I know about you is you love the word efficiency.

3:38We're talking about that so much in the industry. And I guess that may lend itself to why we need to have continuous education in our industry and why there's just not enough specialists, technicians, and owners committed to continuing education. It's got to drive you nuts. Agree. One question that I pose to each and every participant that will hear me out when I do classes, I will pose the question, if there truly exists a better way to do something and you ignore it, Who gets hurt?

4:09And most of them will respond right away, well, I probably would get hurt as a technician, they'll say. And then I'll say, who else? Probably the owner in the shop. I go, yeah, possible, right? And I say, what about your peer? Because if you did a technique that was a good technique and they mimicked that technique and it worked for them, well, now the shop's learning.

4:34And they go, "Yeah." Kind of put 'em in a corner and I'll say, "Who really gets hurt though?" And they'll pause or think about it. And then I'll intervene. I'll say, "Your family gets hurt." I said, "'Cause in theory, less income is coming into the household." And I said, "If I'm wrong, and I can be wrong, I can definitely be wrong." I said, "Prove I'm wrong."

5:00that you're making more money, and maybe it's more money being made with inefficient techniques. That is a very complicated thought. Yes. And I love it. I think it's perfect, but I'm not sure everyone who listens— what do you mean my family's impacted? I think the— come over here, let's talk. Well, let me explain the power of What that means to not only the company that you work for— well, they just pay me an hourly rate, or I'm this, or I'm that.

5:34Well, then maybe you need to find someone willing to pay you for KPIs or efficiencies that you know you have to earn by being a perpetual student and continuing to train so that you could be at the top of your class. If they don't feel like they're going anywhere, they may not see that the family is going to be affected because it's just the same old.

5:56And agree.— and there have to be examples that are shown. And probably the best example that I can think of, ASE, as an example, has gotten on board with a lot of the colleges through their educational foundation where they are now suggesting that the young technicians be taught how to do what is called a relative compression test. And basically it's a compression test that's done electronically versus conventional.

6:20Now conventional means would be to take all the spark plugs out and get all the aesthetics out of the way that are on the engine. Even if he's the fastest, if he or she is the fastest technician in the world, it still takes time. So let's say, being somewhat generous based on what some owners may say, is 2 hours enough time depending on the engine family?

6:443 hours? Let's put 2 hours as the benchmark. So they go through the motions of following the steps to run a conventional compression test. 8-cylinder engine, it's got a lot of aesthetics, they got to move stuff out of the way, they take coils off, they run the tests, they're 2 hours in, they find nothing wrong. Now you gotta add the time to put everything back together, which is additional time.

7:09Was the customer aware? Would they pay? I think the average customer, and I can't speak for every customer out there, but I think the average customer would say, well, you didn't do anything. You didn't find the problem. Why should I pay? And that's due to misunderstanding. I get it. When you go to a doctor, if he runs a test and we pass the test with flying colors, you still pay for the test.

7:31But when it comes to the automotive industry, people are not as forgiving. They'll say right away, well, you didn't find my problem. So I think in the doctoring business, I love your analogy. Think about it all the time. I use it all the time. You go for a test, it's black and white. I mean, they know exactly what they're looking for in this particular test.

7:50We're going to do a compression test. We know what we're looking for. And if it's negative, doctoring has a completely different mystique or respect to it, which goes back to the professionalism of our industry and our ability to say, we've got to do a compression test before we really find out what's going on inside the— if we find out that there's no problems, it's still going to cost $300 to do it.

8:13Well, this is where doing electronically could possibly help save the day. If one could make the statement, I'm gonna have you, Mr. Customer, pay less money for the test, but I'll make more. Now at that point, I think I would have his or her attention. Well, what do you mean? Well, I'm gonna run this test electronically, and basically I'm gonna take an amperage probe, I'm gonna put it around your battery cable.

8:40I don't have to take any parts aloof. I'm gonna attach it to my lab scope I'm gonna get this pattern that we expect to see. I'm hoping and expecting to get a pattern that's a good pattern. And at that point, I can say based on my experience, the relative compression on this vehicle appears to be good. Now, allowing me 15 minutes to hook up, allowing me an additional 15 minutes to run the test, including having a cup of coffee, in one half hour, I think we would have something viable that we could use.

9:13Do it, baby. This is the whole efficiency thing. Exactly. The profitability and the success of the shop is what this whole efficiency thing is, which is why our people need to have this level of training. You're out with Dorman. I mean, I don't know, are you ever home? I do make it home sometime. In fact, I'll be home tomorrow. You will? And how long will you be at home?

9:36For a week? I'll be home for a week. For a week? Yeah. Is in your contract? Well, You have to have time to refresh, right? Oh my God, that is so true. You have to have time to refresh. Yeah, I really enjoy what I do. It gets interesting for me because as I do my homework and research, you learn so much, and there's nothing in writing that'll help support it in that way.

9:58Are you writing your own classes? I do create content, of course, as content for Dorman. They do appreciate what's being done because it's live on vehicle testing. And we're testing not good known product, but I dare say new product. So it kind of helps put us ahead of the curve in terms of our training, because we'll be talking about a subject that maybe a lot of instructors have not mentioned yet.

10:25You were talking to me before we turned on the microphone about a process that you have when you're talking to people about overemphasizing the importance of training and doing certain Diag stuff. Can you help us with this? You bet. It's a process that, in my opinion, is a simplified process. And my step one is nothing new: verify the concern. I've actually gone to shops and I'll say, well, what was the customer's concern?

10:54And he'll call over to Jim. Jim, what did Mr. Reynolds say was wrong with this car? Oh boy. Jim will say, oh boy, I wasn't here when it came in. And then Walter says— it's broken right there. Yeah, the whole thing, the whole process is— well, that's your breakdown, right? Right there. Right there. So now let's say we successfully get past question 1.

11:11We then go to question 2. I've had some very good friends and technicians tell me, well, Kenny, why should I check for codes? Check engine light is on. Well, there could be a pending code. The pending code happened for a reason. There's nothing wrong with gathering that information and making a note. Do a pre-scan report. And then last but not least, probably the most violated step..

11:33And a lot of technicians admit step number 3, you should be checking for TSBs. Maybe that TSB might be the only fix. If it's a code that's being set and it indicates, you know, it tells you step 1, step 2, step 3 on the TSB. And if the last step says reflash the ECM and that's the end of the bulletin, that's it.

11:54Those first 3 steps remind me of blood work. You know, think about it. Yeah. You know, verify check for codes, TSBs. If you see a certain rating on whatever these— God, do you ever look at blood work? I have no idea what it means. Oh, by the way, did you ever know that if you saw— if you got your Quest blood work?

12:15Yes. You sent to you? Yeah. There's question marks near it and it'll tell you what the range that that spec— the specification is. And so you can go down there and before you even see the doctor, you can get happy or sad. And I, and I— Your very own. And I highly agree with that method. I call the worksheet method. The worksheet method.

12:34Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so here it is, we're looking up TSBs that could lead us in the right direction. In the right direction. And wow. And check for codes, you say there's 6 of these, there's, there's 3 more. What's number 4? Well, there's one more I want to add, but I'll call this a subset step. Let's make it maybe 3A, uh, check starting charging Ah, check the battery starting and charging.

13:00Hello? If I don't have a good source, that's the basic. Yeah. And many of your scan tools will assist in doing that. I own a particular scan tool where there's a module that you attach to the scan tool and it has software in there where it'll run battery starting charging. Yeah. And it's a done deal. So now I get past that. I've got a good source, I've got a good starting system, I've got a good charging system.

13:23No matter what, I'm going to check engine mechanical because it just makes sense to me. If I've got an engine, it's not a good engine, my opinion, the diagnostics stop because I need a good engine before I can go any further. How you gonna determine that? Well, we're gonna run the test electronically. A current probe is placed around the battery cable. The current probe is then attached to a laptop with software.

13:50We crank the engine over. You're setting the engine up where it doesn't start but cranks. You'll get a particular signature on the lab scope, and then based on your experience, you'll make a decision as to whether that signature or pattern passes or fails. To show you that it has is significance at a high level. I remember seeing a presentation done by the ASE Educational Foundation which is the accreditation process for automotive training programs across the country, and they are prompting those schools to teach relative compression testing no matter what.

14:30It just makes sense. These engine families have become very difficult to get to things. A lot of aesthetics are in the way. To be able to run that test on an engine where it's difficult to get to components without having to take a lot of items, you know, off the vehicle, that speaks volumes. Once you are comfortable running that test, you may be a half hour, 45 minutes in at best, versus if you did it conventionally, you might be an hour, 2 hours in, and then only to find out the compression's good.

15:04Is this process necessary for drivability or check engine I would say absolutely. It just makes sense. It's a make sense process. Common sense. Number 5, check ignition. Check ignition. I route the person to ignition because by checking ignition, that can be another area that could be fairly quickly accessed. Maybe you could pull a fuse. You can look at all the coils on that one circuit.

15:30There could be various ways to access ignition-related information and also determine in your opinion, if everything is good or bad. And of course, check what fuses too. I mean, I think you just mentioned that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The automotive world is changing fast and customers are expecting speed, accuracy, and confidence in every repair. To keep your shop competitive, your technicians need training that's smarter, faster, and future-focused.

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17:53After all, it's your shop, so it's your choice, and having local representation is a huge plus. Customizing Trax to your business, whether you're a one-person shop or a large multi-bay or multi-location company, our representative consults with you to help optimize your shop's workflow, efficiency, and profitability. Trax always has the flexibility to do business how you need to do it, which means it can also grow as your business grows.

18:20And unlike the other guys, we'll be there for you after installation with the best training and support in the business. Yes, a learning management system tailored to each role in your company. Simply put, Trax was designed and built for shop owners just like you. Visit us on the web at napatrax.com. That's N-A-P-A-T-R-A-X dot com. Are we as an industry— we've got scan tools inside the shop and the owner buys them, are they making a stronger commitment that each, at least a diagnostic specialist inside the bays, knows that piece of equipment in and out?

19:00In my opinion, I wish there were more data interpretation class. And what I mean by that, how to interpret the data and then challenge the technician on his or her interpretation of the data. One question I always pose in my class is looking at a MAP sensor, M-A-P sensor. Yeah, I tell them, I say, well, let's say we're both looking at the scan tool together and we look at the scan tool, and for the MAP sensor PID, it literally says 10 inches of mercury.

19:34Well, right away the technician in many cases will go off the scales. Wait a minute, Ken, I live in Chicago. I need to see a vehicle with 18 inches of mercury. I say, really? And he'll say, yeah. He says, that's what I'm used to seeing. He says, if you're seeing 10 inches on the scan tool, something's wrong. Well, then we'll talk further, only to find out that the 10 inches of mercury on the scan tool is accurate.

19:57Now then I go on to explain. I said, well, there's a formula that I'm going to give you. I need you to take barrel, whatever the barrel information is, minus the map information., and then we're going to let that equal engine vac. Let's for a moment pretend we have a perfect vacuum, and we'll use 30 inches of mercury. 30 inches minus 10 equals 20.

20:25Now again, picking on Chicago, if you got an engine in the service bay with 20 inches of mercury, that's a phenomenal number. So you cannot look at every individual number alone? No, no. I would always kind of look at the data and do my best to interpret that data appropriately, 'cause that's gonna help me make some good decisions. See the same old people in the classes?

20:51And I don't mean old. I mean, the same people in your classes around the country? It depends. They have us going so many areas now. I maybe make an area maybe once or twice a year. Okay. And I gotta be honest with you, when I do come back that second time, I do have a crowd that's very open to what's being said.

21:09They're willing to listen, but at the same time, I challenge them. It's a friendly challenge. Hey, you're more than welcome to disagree, but go to the service bay, go in the bay and put it to the test. Start applying. Yeah. And if there's something you disagree with or say, hey, I don't think this works for me, then let's talk about it. Because now you're opening up a debate and you have no information to support what you believe.

21:33What classes are you teaching now, Ken? We're doing classes on automotive lab scopes. I'd love to see us evolve to doing some classes with more concentration on engine mechanical analysis, ignition, fuel systems, definitely what they call communications, because communication interpretation is starting to change dramatically. We did a class today here at TST on the General Motors VIP platform. Which stands for Vehicle Intelligence Platform.

22:06And just prior to coming here this week, I had a chance to speak to some friends who work at a GM dealership. And when I was posing the question, hey, have you heard of the VIP platform? I said, well, what does it mean when someone says, what is VIP in reference to General Motors? And he responds, he says, I think it's the way of just the way the modules talk to each other.

22:30And I respond, I said, "Do you feel that's a sufficient explanation?" And he'll say, "Well, no." And I'll say, "So we need to do some homework, right?" And he agrees. So we're kind of working together as a team to do the homework and offer some better understanding. I hope you all listening here or watching us realize that Kenny never asks a question that has a very simple answer to it.

22:55No. I love the fact that you constantly challenge a person's think. Well, we have to, and it helps us all because right now I was speaking to some friends about it and they go, "VIP, VIP, I've never heard of that. I've never—" And they started researching. They started going to the internet. They started going to service information. They started making notes. These guys are self-training without you even asking them.

23:19When you said that in today's class, did you have a lot of blank stares? No. Guys started getting on their phone researching. Oh, they did? Oh. They sure did. Right there. They sure did. And then they were listening because we had mentioned something that they call OTA, over-the-air updates. The average consumer, he'll get a request on the dash or on the radio, "Hey, we want to do an update."

23:42He responds yes, he or she responds yes, they update it over the air. A lot of technicians, very good technicians, are concerned, "Well, will this— how will this affect my business? I do programming on a consistent basis." Customer doesn't have to go to the dealership for any of that. He can do it right home in his garage, provided all the conditions are set right.

24:03That's not going to solve a problem that the vehicle has. It's just going to keep it whatever current means. Well, there's a lot to be said for keeping it current. And for them to be able to do that over the air, as they say, I think that's a significant moving forward for the manufacturer. Uh, it's not just GM doing it. There are other manufacturers that are doing it as well.

24:26Sure. Uh, even with some emissions programs, I was talking to a gentleman that has an emissions program in his state. They will actually look up to see if there's any updates that the vehicle needs, and if that vehicle has not had that update, they will not test the vehicle until that update is done. Sounds smart. Yeah. So it's gonna be a change in a lifestyle for all of us.

24:51If we're not paying attention to this evolving technology, we're going to be so far out. To your point, the success that you want to have has to come from your continuing education. I love the whole who you're affecting. Ultimately, my family, because be the main breadwinner or not, yes, you're still part of the monies that need to be created so that you can live a lifestyle that at least pays your bills, you can put some money away.

25:22Yes. And do owners, enough owners, and I'm speaking to you owners who are listening, appreciate that you're feeding all these families, all these mouths in these families. And if you do, then what are you doing about continuing education and all the 50 different things the good strategies of a good CEO has to make? But here we're at a training event and the education, not only for leadership and CEO and process and systems education, but we're talking about basic core high-tech, how the vehicle works training.

25:53Absolutely. Each shop, and again, this is just someone speaking from the outside in. I'm not an owner, I'm not a business person by any means, but I do look at things that make sense. There's nothing wrong with having a training game plan for the year. Even if you don't make it, even if you don't go, even if nothing happens, at least there was a training game plan.

26:18Yeah. When there's no game plan, life gets in the way. So what bothers the hell outta me is when I talk to owners and I say, so what classes have you sent your people to? Be it leader-led, be it, you know, lunch and learns and all the different components of great continuing education. They say, well, my people won't go. And then the next question that I ask, and I know it's very sarcastic and facetious, I say, who owns the business?

26:45And when, but then I get down into the weeds. Listen, we had this thing, we were going to do a Friday, Saturday, you know, Kenny Sanders would come into town, blah, blah, blah, all that. They still can't because there's so much going on in life and so much scheduled. Where are Where is that bridge that the commitment to training is? You got to have 40, we want 60.

27:10There's all these different components. I will pay for training, all of this stuff. The business, in my opinion, just my opinion, is not going to survive if we are not tackling this high-tech training initiative that our people who are responsible to make us the money in the bays. Yes. Efficient. Ly. Let's bring that word back. Yes. And it may take a year or two to bring the culture of continuing education into a business, especially if the owner gets pushback.

27:43No, I agree. There's nothing wrong with at least attempting to plan ahead and then learn from the, you know, whatever mistakes are made along the way. For instance, if I start, let's say, 2027 as a year of learning. Okay, maybe the first 6 months you don't push, but let's say over that 6-month period, you notice John is having a problem with putting— diagnosing certain drivability issues.

28:13Maybe a class could be put together when things maybe slow down. Maybe they slow down during the summer months. I don't know when. Yeah, but find a time where people can make a commitment where you can put the excuses aside. Well, John, it's January. In August of this year, we're looking at doing some training. Oh, I'm on vacation in August. Okay. What week are you on vacation, John?

28:34I don't know yet. Can you talk to the family and maybe give me some insight, John? Because we really need to do this. John, how about if we carve out 3 hours on the other 3 weeks that you're not going to be on vacation and do this lunch and learn program that's coming up that I know Xanders is going to do and You got to listen to this guy.

28:55He's going to help you. Well, we're trying to plan ahead, John. Can you work with us? I know. Exactly right. Because, you know, John, we're committed to continuing education. Yes. We need this in our business. Yeah. Again, efficiency. We need to make the right, smart kind of money that will sustain this business, your salaries and the incentives that we work on and all the things that we have to pay to keep this lovely business open.

29:21And a lot of shops are shifting the approach. Some are even soliciting the independent instructors and saying, hey, can you come in, do a session at our shop, versus me sending maybe 3 or 4 technicians to California to participate in this big event? Maybe I'm averaging $2,000 per tech. Yeah, you could go down to $1,000 by bringing somebody in. And we talked about it with Keith Perkins and with Andrew Fisher, this identical concept.

29:53And as I told both of them, I thought that was the future of, uh, high quality, great content absorption. Yes. Because of the intimacy of it. Yes. That you're right there shoulder to shoulder. Somebody's not gonna be afraid to ask you a question. Absolutely. In a setting like that, rather than 60, 90 in a room. I think it would be a great way to promote someone's moving forward.

30:19It would be a great way to plan ahead. It would be a great way to set goals. Because if we're constantly on the run, how can we plan ahead? How can we set goals? Before you know it, the full year is out. You're like, "Man, we didn't get anything done." You know what? You just said 3 words that's a mouthful. You said, "On the run."

30:46Yes. And to me, that describes people that are behind the 8-ball. Oh yeah. That haven't done a lot of things right and are just existing in a matrix. I don't want to go crazy, but you know where I'm going. They're always on the run. Let's fix this. What happened? Oh, don't do that again. And what about this? Oh, fix that over here.

31:11Turn the lights on. Get this. It's like move the battery charger. There's, It's ca— on the run, I guess to me means chaos. That is chaos. I literally, there's a shop that I visit frequently. They're very good friends, but the way they repair cars is somewhat scary. You talked to them. You talked to us about them at dinner in Philly. Remember that Tracy?

31:33Oh yeah. Yeah, you did. And you said, God, I love these people, but they just can't. Oh, they— I went there the other day. All it takes, all it takes is the mention of something. What do you think? Well, I think it's the crank sensor. You turn around, the crank sensor's been already replaced. Wait a minute, what's going on? We were just talking about it for a minute.

31:53Why did the crank sensor come out? Ah, 'cause you're all-knowing, all-seeing. No, it can't. No, anybody can walk in and say it and they're on it. It's just crazy. It's, it's chaos. The way they look at it, they look at it as, well, I'll play devil's advocate. I'll look at a list of possibilities and service information. I'll go down that list. Eventually, probability may work in my behalf and I'll win.

32:19But you're going down a grocery list. How is that efficient? And they'll look at me and they'll say, well, Kenny, we gotta make money. How are you making money? No, you're not. I think that's the misnomer here. Yeah. It is not replace as many top-end things that we think are right. And you know what? Customer's willing to pay, so we're fine. I'm sorry, ethically I believe that's the wrong way to approach it.

32:41I do as well, and I do my best to try to get them to listen to reason, and you're gonna get to some, and some you're not. But the ones you are able to get to see another way or change the mindset, that's the reward. You are one of the wisest men that I know. No, just an enthusiast who went too far.

33:03I love it. Ken Zanders, Dorman Training. Thanks for being here, man. Thank you. Thanks for being on board to listen and learn from the premier automotive repair business podcast, Remarkable Results Radio. Get your episodic education on the ARPN listing app at automotiverepairpodcastnetwork.com. Also enjoy the podcast on our Carm Capriato YouTube channel. Carm is all for advancing the professional automotive service industry. Until next time.