Episode 259 - Building Company Culture and Beating Chargebacks in Automotive Shops With Kevaughn Williams

0:02Hey folks, David here, and I'd like to thank you for joining us for the Changing the Industry podcast. Lucas and I started this podcast with the goal of capturing the frank and open conversations you typically have at industry events. Those conversations cover the challenges we face in our business and lives, as well as difficult repairs, new products and services, and everything in between.

0:26We hoped that these recordings would spur our listeners to enact the change they'd like to see in their own lives and businesses. That's also why we've partnered with the Institute for Automotive Business Excellence. My first management class was with Cecil Bullard, and his genuine passion for helping others in an honest and ethical manner permeates his entire organization. And if you need some of the Institute's help, they have a special offer for our listeners.

1:00Click the link in the show notes and get signed up for a free business analysis. They'll go over your current situation and give you advice on your next steps. And they have everything from free resources and online classes to peer groups, one-on-one coaching, and specific help for MSOs. So don't miss out on this great offer. Click the link in the show notes.

1:26And now on to the podcast. I just want to point out that you are so persnickety about your colors and this, that, and the other. The minute we're done, I take your entire picture and I put the Joe Rogan CNN filter on it so you look sickly and green, and that's what we roll with. And that's why everybody's like Is Lucas feeling okay?

1:49It's like, yeah, he's fine. He's fine. I know he looks sickly and green. Might be dying. Who knows? Have you seen the Trump filter? No, I've not. So they put, yeah, they, they put them, they make them extra orange. I'll send you videos of it. So they'll do side by side. This is all on X, by the way. I'm not trying to get political.

2:09I'm just saying that this is all on X. They will play the video side by side. And on CNN, Trump is extra orange, extra orange. Like, I think I can pull it off. You know, more than normal. Look, I can pull it off, David. Look. You getting sickly and green? Yeah. And then the Joe Rogan filter. And then like all the other channels, not MSNBC, but all the other channels, he looks He looks like Trump normal.

2:46He's still orange, but not like grotesquely orange, like, like an orange orange. Can you imagine the shower in the White House after he gets done with his spray tan? Man, that bad boy has got to be like caked up. Hey, he wants a glow. I, hey, I, I appreciate it. He doesn't look like death. The other guy looked like death and he didn't care.

3:08I don't think he realized he looked like death. He was just walking around mumbling to himself, eating ice cream. He looked like death, man. Nobody bothered to tell him like, hey, we're going to put a little blush on them cheeks. We're going to, we're going to spruce you up so you don't look like death warmed over. Listen, listen, nobody's telling us that we look like death, death warmed over, right?

3:29They tell me that you look like death warmed over and I'm like, it's the CNN Joe Rogan filter. Sorry. So Mr. 360 Payments. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Like the head dog out there, makes everything happen now that Lisa's not there anymore. He's like, he's like everything to everybody at this point. That's how this works, right? I'm not, I'm not the top dog.

3:51I mean, I would say top 3, humbly, you know, top 3, you know. But yeah, man, I'm in touch with everyone, you know, all aspects of the, you know, operations, tech side, onboarding, you know. Gotta make myself valuable. There you go, there you go. So we met in Tulsa Right. And so I came back and I told David, I was like, dude, the, the culture within the Velo brands, but primarily like, and all of them have it, but 360 has a very unique culture.

4:22And I thought it was really interesting because there's so much of Lisa in that culture. And Lisa's not even like day-to-day leadership involved in that way anymore., but you still see that in the culture. So I wanted to have you on and talk culture a little bit, a talk 360, because 360 is a, a kind of powerhouse payment system within the automotive space.

4:46Yes, sir. But the support and the things that you do that are unique are rooted in the culture of the organization. Can you tell us how that happens and why that happens? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, first off, you know, I'll start with my name. My name is Kevon Williams. Everyone calls me Kev. I am the operations manager here at 360 Payments.

5:06I'm over the customer support team and the technical support team. Also help oversee our deployment installation and onboarding as well, like I mentioned earlier. The culture, like you said with Lisa, they instilled that. I've been— it'll be my 5th year anniversary this August, you know, with the company. And when I came on, my first one-on-one was with Lisa, you know, first time My first meeting or any kind was, oh, it was with the co-founder of the company.

5:33And she instilled the culture there. Like, it's one thing for them to talk about it, but it's a whole nother thing to see it day in and day out. The messages, the acknowledgments, the, you know, the referrals, the, hey, you did a good job, keep doing it. Or also just, yeah, you want to try it? Let's try it. Let's see what happens.

5:53And just that, that get stuff done, you know, being grit. Honest to a fault is a big one, you know, for our values. You know, it's just, hey, even if a customer is having a bad day or we can't help them or do what they are asking, let's let them know that. You know, let's be honest to a fault. And we have— we hold each other, you know, accountable to the highest level, you know.

6:14And that's one thing I tell my teams is that, you know, as long as we have that peer-to-peer accountability, we're always going to do great. You should, you should have your teammate, make sure they know that you have an expectation for them when they're assisting our customers and vice versa. You know, if you, if your teammate knows that, hey, I want this person to do well, they're more inclined to do well.

6:37For sure. And, and here's the interesting thing. And so I didn't know anything about the Slack group and I didn't know anything about the taco competition. I didn't know anything about any of that. And I always wondered where that, like, push and that drive— and, like, I thought it was so cool. So I show up at this event, right? Yeah. Nobody knows me from the 360 team, right?

7:02Like, or that— I didn't think they did. Like, I know Lisa and I know, like, people within Shopware, but I've never, like, fully been involved aside from, like, being friends with Jesse and stuff. I've never really been hardcore involved with 360 or anything like that. Yet people that I had talked to on the telephone about my payment stuff are like, Lucas, hey man, like, did you get that fixed?

7:23And they remember the exact scenario. I'm like, do what? Did that really just happen? Yes, sir. So tell me, tell me about the competition thing, because it is a very friendly competition. And so we talk about like motivation in the workplace, things like that. Yes, sir. But you guys have a really friendly competition that's a lot of fun. Tell me a little bit about how that works.

7:43Yes, sir. And we call that our Taco Celebration. So any accomplishment, any— if your teammate sees you doing well or, you know, overcoming some trials and tribulations or just doing something new or different, it can be as easy as, hey, you put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher. Thank you for doing that. Here's a taco. Or, hey, I heard you had a real tough call.

8:03You handled that very well. Here's a taco. And the great thing about it, anybody can give someone a taco. And you only have one per day. So you're not just slinging tacos to anybody. Why are— why are you giving this person a taco? It does matter. We don't have any blindness of, oh, I just gave you a taco just because I wanted to, because we're really good, we went to lunch together.

8:22No, it has to be a certain reason why, and it has to be intentional and purposeful. And then throughout the year, everything is tracked. Lucas and I have been telling you about PartsTech for a while now and how it gives you access to unlimited parts and tire vendors and direct integration with over 35 shop management systems. And now they've just launched a new referral program.

8:44All you have to do is open your PartsTech account, go to My Shop, and click on the Rewards tab. There you'll find your referral URL, which you can share via email, text message, or on your social media. If your referral signs up for a new account and places 5 orders in the first 30 days, PartsTech will send you a $100 gift card.

9:05That's it, nothing else is needed. Your referrals can get you $100 just for using PartsTech, which by the way is absolutely free to get started with. So if you're using PartsTech already, start sharing that referral link. And if you haven't signed up for PartsTech yet, what are you waiting for? Click on the link in the description or go to partstech.com/podcast. That's partstech.com/podcast.

9:33Hey, one more thing. If you find out that your shop management system doesn't integrate with PartsTech, it's time to upgrade. David and I use what we believe to be the very best system on the market, Shopware. With unmatched features like PartsGP Optimizer and DVX, which is their digital vehicle experience, Shopware really is way more than just a shop management software. With it, you'll be able to create an immersive and interactive experience for your client, setting you apart from everyone else using run-of-the-mill software.

10:00Are you ready to upgrade? Click the link in the show notes to get started. Every quarter when we do our town halls, we talk about at that point, you know, who got the most tacos this quarter, you know, give them a nice little gift card, celebrate them. And that goes on throughout the year, which you saw at kickoff, you know, for AMP.

10:16At the end of the year, they total all up and then, hey, whoever got the most tacos, you get celebrated for that. And you're being celebrated by your team, by your managers, by your COOs, CEOs, you know. And it's a huge thing because a lot of times, even the company I came from before, they talk about that culture, but you never see it once you get there, you know, and here you actually see it.

10:38You can, your COO will give you a taco. You, at some companies, you never even talked to the COO before. For sure. You know, that can happen. And so a lot of, you know, my team, they range from the ages of, you know, 20, 21 to about 28. And they're coming from, you know, Andolini's for pizza or a coffee shop, you know, and that's such a huge deal.

10:58For the culture, for them to know. They think I'm just going to a corporate role or, you know, call center environment, but no, your COO, let's go have lunch. You know, your VP of payments, hey, let's go talk. What do you think will work? No matter, no matter your title. And that's huge. You know what I mean? That is very huge. But top person is great.

11:16For sure. And, and, you know, I thought it was so interesting and I'm not going to call them out here in the podcast, but I talked to a couple employees.. And all of them pointed out that the skills and the talents that they learned or are learning within this organization, that they felt like they were better prepared for life moving forward because of what they had learned here.

11:40And I thought it was neat because one of the things that came out of somebody's mouth was, is, hey, I came to work for 360. My plan was I was going to go to school for this. And this was going to be a stepping stone to that. But I am so afraid to leave this company because I don't think I'll ever find something so neat, so special as what we have right here.

12:02I'm considering staying because of that. And like, I'm sitting here— David absolutely flipped out on a CEO one time because he was talking about his culture and he's like, your culture is bullshit, dude. Like, it doesn't exist. It's not real. Now, now look, I'm gonna tell you this, I was in complete agreement with him until I showed up at that event, and then I saw something completely different that I'd never seen in any organization ever.

12:30And I don't— it blew my— you saw the post I made. I was dead honest, genuine. I, I just could not even believe that you guys had implemented it to such a degree. No, man, the coach is very important, man. It's just because it's one thing that I can't really put a value on. Like, whenever I'm interviewing new candidates, I tell them, I'm like, hey, there's two things that I'll bet my whole check on.

12:52One thing is the culture here, 360 Payments and Velo as a whole. And the other thing is growth opportunity. Yeah. The growth opportunity is so serious. You just have to make sure that you're ready for it. You're prepared for it because it's going to come. It's not a matter if it's going to come, it's when it's going to come. And if you're ready for it.

13:10And it's my job to put you in a position to where you are ready for that. So tell me this, give me a little bit of your life story and how you ended up here. I want to hear how you got here. Yes, sir. All right. So just thinking back, because I was thinking over the weekend, Easter Sunday, and I was like, man, what are we going to talk about?

13:28You know, what am I going to talk about? And I'm like, okay. And I was thinking about all my history. I'm going to go through it. But I came to realize that I've been in the automotive industry this whole time and never realized it. Never even realized it. It draws you in, man. Man, in some form or fashion. So we can start my first, when I moved back here to Oklahoma, first job, I was at Story Wrecker.

13:52It was a tow company. You know, first year's job, full-time. I have my own apartments on me. They had a contract with the City of Tulsa Police Department. So my first position there, I was a lot hand. Just lock in. Oh, your car got in an accident, you got repoed, it got towed by the police. Let's go get your belongings out the car.

14:11Simpam playing, you know, take them to the back, come forward. I want to say maybe after about 8 months, they needed someone in the office. They saw that, you know, oh, you went to school. Do you want to do this? You know, I was like, hey, well, I'll give it a try. No worries there. Got into the office, answering phone calls on the computer.

14:28Loved it. Loved it. Did a really good job at it. The one thought about it was that folks that were upset because their car got towed by the police and everything, whenever I told them the total, hey, I know your car got towed today, it just got here, but you're looking around $275 to pick it up. It just got there, $275? Frustrated.

14:48And I knew that they were coming to see me. There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it. I knew that they was coming to see me. And so that's one thing that I want to say that did prepare me for just being ready for tough conversations. You know, understanding that, hey, that phone conversation is one thing, but then knowing they have— I know that they're coming.

15:06Yeah, dude. So I've got a little story about that. Okay. Years ago, um, there's a, there's a wrecker business that does all of our towing in town, and I will never forget it. The owner of the business is there, and, and, um, a car gets towed in, and it comes in, the bill's like $250, and dude tells him it's $250, and this man calls him every name in the And he's— the owner's very, very mild, very laid-back, very, very smooth and gentle human being.

15:39He says, "Now your bill's $375." And that man says again, he starts screaming and cussing again, and he says, "Now your bill's $425." And it just, man, it goes up. We're up into the thousands at some point. And this dude goes outside and he calls the police department. Police department shows up. They walk in the door and they're standing there and he's screaming and yelling, telling them all these things.

16:02And the police officer The owner said, "Well, considering he has your car and he can decide what it is he's gonna charge you, even if you decide to take him to court later, that's fine. I'm just telling you, he decides what he charges you." He did. So I think I would shut up and pay the man. And so the guy gets upset and he has to go to the ATM.

16:22He comes back with the money and he hands that money out to that guy. And the owner takes it and he looks at it and he counts out all except for that $250, $275, and he hands it back to him. He said, "I just wanted to teach you a lesson about the importance of what you say to people." because it matters and it can impact you, and it impacts you more than it impacts them.

16:40And I thought that was— I'll never— dude, that was like a life lesson I've never forgotten. I'll never forget it. No, that's— and that's, that's good that he was able to, you know, teach in that fashion, you know, because the thing is, you have to respect people, man. You have to respect people just because— it doesn't matter what position they hold or anything.

16:55My dad taught me early, like, hey, you say good morning to the janitor too. Yeah, you know, you say good morning to whoever you will cross paths with. You lock eyes, hey, good morning, how you doing? You know, I was taught that at an early age. And so that, that, that means a lot to me. Um, let's see, back on track. Back on track.

17:12Okay. So Story Records. So I was there for about 3 years, anything like that. Um, at this point, you know, I got my little girlfriend. I want to try and move up, you know, I need to get some more, you know, finances under me. And so I started looking around. Okay. There's a position, customer support position for Avis Budget Group. Rental car company.

17:33I sent my application on that. Funny part on that, um, the interview process had to do it on lunch break. Had to figure it out. It was at the Stafford Agency. I left. I was in constant communication with the person that was doing it. I let her know when I showed up. She skipped me in front of like 40 people to get me in for the interview.

17:50Oh wow. Got me in, got that done. I think I was about maybe 7 to 10 minutes late coming back from my lunch break. Just trying to make that happen. And I did get that position there, just regular customer support, still just dealing with automotive and just— my first position was just regular customer support, you know, how much is my ticket, making reservations.

18:12And my last position there was delayed check-in. And that's basically whenever you return a car, they don't check it in in time. But then a week, two weeks down the line, you get a receipt saying, oh, you returned the car. 2, 3 days late because it was in a different parking lot at the airport. It was my— it was my job to then do the research, reach out to the airport, confirm when it was actually returned, make the updates, and then correct you and issue any kind of refunds that were needed.

18:36Dude, okay, like, I'm just gonna tell you, like, I switched to Avis for a while. I'm an Alamo guy, okay? I switched to Avis for a while. I did not enjoy that experience very much. Okay, I'm just gonna— I'm not trying to talk bad about— you're gonna get blamed for all the Avis problems. Yeah, like, I know you've been there for a while, but listen, I got some beef here.

19:02I— so we— I can't remember where we were, and I rented a car, and I go in, and, and I had delayed, and it was delayed in Charlotte. Get there the next day, and I opened up my phone, and it's not on my app, and I'm like, hey, What am I supposed to do about this? And he said, well, he's like, it's because you were delayed.

19:21I know you called in, not a big deal. We've still got the same car we're going to put you in. We're just going to put you in that car. Well, they had given me a free upgrade on the original reservation. When he plugged the reservation in, he plugged it in as he sold me an upgrade. And I guess because he got commission for selling an upgrade and all of this other stuff And so my bill went from like $350 to like $980.

19:54Dude, it was— and like, so I'm sitting— it was in Costa Mesa, California. We were at ETI and I was— remember the Jaguar, David? It had the— you sit down in the car and you like turn the knob and it would, it would pop up and it would say it had air-conditioned seats and you'd hit the button and it would tell you you had to pay a subscription to get the air-conditioned seats.

20:14No way. Yeah, you hadn't upgraded. You're like, hey, you didn't pay for the upgrade. No way. And so, and so it was crazy, right? Because like, and then I get it back and we left super early in the morning. I'll never forget. I think David like almost missed his flight or did miss his flight as we're like rolling up to the gate.

20:33His plane's pushing back. He went to the wrong check-in gate. Phoenix. Was that in Phoenix? Yeah. But were you guys returning back to the same airport to fly out or was it like a one-way? No, same airport, same airport. Okay. And so like I returned my card, I'm sitting there and I'm looking at my little thing. I'm like, do what? What? This is why I prepay.

20:55I always prepay. You prepay and then there's like, oh, I got a free upgrade. Great. What are you going to do? You're not going to charge me again. Like I already paid. So we're done. Right. Yeah. Transaction's over. Always prepaid. What you do is you rent Alamo and then you just don't have these problems. Right? Like, that's just what you do. That's great.

21:13But the last— it wasn't this last one, but the one before that— car stunk of weed. Like, it was reeking of weed. And that's Alamo's fault. That's the previous driver's fault. I get that. But, bro, no, it's Alamo's fault. I'll say it. But we went to— we went to that Alamo in Phoenix. Wasn't it Phoenix? It was Phoenix. Where they sprayed the— whatever the hell they sprayed that car with, it smelled phenomenal.

21:43It smelled of clean. Whatever the hell clean smells like, that's what the car smelled like. It was 10 out of 10. It was so good. And I left a review and I'm like, this is the cleanest smelling car I've ever had, ever. It was so nice versus weed, like stank Ditch weed. What is ditch weed? I smoked a lot of weed in my life.

22:07I've never smoked any weed out of a ditch. Dave, you gotta explain that, sir, please. You never heard of the term ditch weed? Never, never in my 34 years living. I mean, like, I don't know, maybe you throw the bag out when the law gets behind you. You can look it up on Urban Dictionary. Ditch weed. Will do, will do, will do.

22:27I think that's called swag. David's searching it right now. Well, I am glad that, um, well, no, I'm not. I was gonna say I'm glad Lisa's got a sense of humor. Um, Lisa's not the CEO or the co-founder anymore, right? Right, right. Now you're in trouble. She'll be fine. She'll be fine. She'll be fine. Let me see where we at, man. So you went to, you went to Avis?

22:55Yeah. And you were kind of handling the check-in stuff? Yeah, the late check-ins. Yes, sir. And I was there, I was there for probably around 4 years going on 5. We're finally getting into a good roll and here comes Lucas interrupting the episode. Folks, now you know exactly why I hire Shop Marketing Pros to do my shop marketing. It's that I am spastic and all over the place and I lack consistency.

23:19But here's the thing, that doesn't work in marketing. You see, marketing takes 30, 60, sometimes 90 days to be effective. And I was all over the place with my marketing. There was no consistency at all. Caused these waves in my business because I was so inconsistent. And that's why I am so happy to refer Shop Marketing Pros. They bring consistency. They are true professionals.

23:47I'm going to encourage you, go down to the link below and get your free digital marketing inspection. Just like we do digital vehicle evaluations for automobiles, they're doing the same thing about your marketing, and they will help you get your business turned around. Has been changed at this point. My job, what I'm doing, it does not require me to speak with anyone.

24:09I'm actually just investigating, going to research, and I'm getting my caseload by email. So in this situation, I took the opportunity with my team being there. Hey, you know, now we're working from home. Would it be possible for me to work from midnight to 8 AM? Yeah, midnight to 8 AM. That way I still have my whole day, you know, still no kids at this point in time, but we're working on it.

24:31But we're working on it. And so, um, my supervisor at the time, yeah, that's why, that's fine. The productivity is there. You're doing the work. You know, I never had to check in. No issues with that. So I was doing that for about 6, 7 months, this clockwork, and I was able to get a part-time job. During the daytime because I wanted to end up buying a home.

24:49You know, I had plans and things I wanted to do. So my schedule was lovely. Now, into that, close to the end of the 4-year mark, 4 and a half years, manager change, everything switch up. And then the conversation comes, hey, we're not going to be allowing you to have this schedule anymore. We're going to have to force you. Yeah, yeah, we're going to have to force you.

25:12We need you on this schedule. You can still work from home, but You have to be on this schedule. I was like, okay, what that is, just so we're clear, that's cutting into my part-time. And letting them know my goals, I'm like, hey, my productivity has always been— I'm always self-aware on certain things on how I gauge my success. But they ended up still going moving forward and said, hey, unfortunately, this is not up for debate.

25:37We got to make this move. And so at that point, I knew I have to find something else. Because I know I have goals and I explained to Mixpress that, hey, these are my plans. You're telling me that you want me to do this just because you want me to. There's no, it's just, hey, it's my way or the highway. And in this situation, it's like, we got to do better.

25:59We got to do better. So I learned a lot of things from bad management to take with me in my journey. For sure. That reminds me of the story that David always tells about O'Reilly's. When, when like he had a system that worked and he had developed a system and, and he knew how to run his store and his store worked like it was supposed to.

26:18But some hothead district manager or somebody from, from afar, it's about control, right? It's not, it's not about the outcome. And I think that's when management really misses it, because when it, when it's about control instead of the outcome, man, we break it. Right? And it's, it's just about telling that person and squeezing that person and helping them understand who's really in charge here.

26:44That, that management doesn't work like that. I don't care what anybody says, it just doesn't work. Not at all. Not at all. And so in my, in my search, you know, I think I was working— my part-time was Chili's. I was working to-go at Chili's, you know, QA and everything like that. And so at the time, I came across 360 Payments. You know, um, I was with Avis Budget Group for about 5 years, started at $13 an hour, ended at $15.75.

27:10Nothing, nothing. Yeah, exactly. Nothing crazy. It's like, I've been there for this long and turnover in the call center is 6 months. It's, it's easy for you to lose employees. And so, yeah, um, I saw an ad for 360 Payments customer support, reached out, um, and at the time they brought me in. Interviews, they loved me. They loved everything, especially with my resume having the 5 years straight with Avis Budget Group, no hiccups or anything.

27:34They knew that I was going to be there, you know, and that I could, you know, withstand the time. And so they brought me on. And one thing I did love about 360, and this is before the VLO thing came into play, was the transparency. I love the transparency. If they, when they knew the information, they knew it. When they didn't know, hey, Kael, we're not sure, but we're going to work on this for you.

27:54We're going to figure this out. And I just love how they were able to— they empowered me to push me to learn more, do more. If you think this is going to work, try that. And if it doesn't, let's course correct. Maybe half of them would have worked. And I've been in love ever since. And here recently, I got promoted to level 1, level 2, level 3.

28:17I've been through all the ranks. I actually skipped team lead. And became supervisor. And now I'm the operations manager. So I went through all the reasons. So I know, you know, and I appreciate my managers and, you know, previously, you know, but only because I've learned what not to do in that situation. I know that there's a personable aspect that needs to be there when you're leading people.

28:42My team, I have a total of 15 agents that's under me. Age range from 20, 21 to about 28. You know, they're, they're learning life as we speak, you know. And as far as, you know, previous, you know, experience with them, we got folks that came from, you know, pizza shops, coffee shops, liquor stores. It's just, you know, not knowing, being used to not being paid from when you're not at work, and now you have an opportunity to have PTO.

29:12Like, the conversations I've had to have is like, oh, well, how does TikTok work? You know, how does— you know, so I take it very, very seriously as far as my responsibility to help build people, not only for 360, for Velo, but for themselves in life. And I tell them all the time, my goal is that 10 years down the line, you see me somewhere on lock, you're like, hey, that was the best manager I had.

29:33That's what my goal is. That's what my goal is. And so I know what it's like when you— when your manager isn't transparent, or, oh, we'll talk about it later, or, and then we don't talk about it, or, you know, oh yeah, I do care, but I can tell you really don't. Yeah, it's, it's just lip service at that point, right? It's literally just telling them what they want to hear to get them to shut up and go about their way.

29:56What, what's been the biggest challenge as far as taking over that kind of leadership role in an organization like this, man? I was just saying, learning the people. At some point, at some point, this laptop, the rates, the data, all of that, that's great to know, but you want to master that. People is one thing you're never going to master. There's different types of people, the way there's different types of perspectives, and you got to be able to listen.

30:22You know, a lot of leaders don't listen. You have to listen first. You listen first, have the empathy, know that this is real life. When they're coming to you crying about what's going on in their life, listen. We don't— they don't need to hear, oh, you're doing good, we should work on this, keep, keep doing a great job. No. And everyone learns differently, you know.

30:41You have to actually pay attention and let that wall down and know, hey, teach me how I can better push you. Right, right. Absolutely. You know, when, when we look at you, you, you've really pushed yourself to the next level as far as career goes. Right? Like, you've continued to march forward. You started a YouTube channel. Tell us a little bit about the YouTube channel.

31:03Yes sir, yes sir. YouTube channel is Living with the Williams. It actually started just as, you know, a place to keep memories for me and my family, you know. My first daughter Madison, she was born, and it was like, hey, you know, I don't want to do just the generic photo albums or anything like that. And so we always travel before the kids even got here, and so I was like, you know what, Instead of us showing pictures and things like that, as far as what they did, we can record this.

31:29I always like recording videos, you know, and small little edits here and there. So it was nothing except for fun to me. And then also just if it turns into passive income, it's great, you know, and it's love to see. I love to see when my— we're watching a video and it just shows like a recommendation and it's us. That's so awesome, dude.

31:48And my daughter's like, oh yeah, that's us when we went. Like, I even went to her school and she's had her class watching us when we went to, um, California. It's just, it's just crazy, you know. So, um, but it's just experiencing life, man. And yeah, just those things as far as those milestones. Like right now in June, we're going to be taking both daughters, uh, to Disney World, man.

32:11Like that's just one where it's one of those milestones. Like if I could get my kids to Disney World, it's so many people that have not done that yet. And that's the— and that's how, just how I gauge my success, the things that I want to be able to do for them. Like, I went to Disney World. My, my mom took me, you know, was 5 and 6, and just being able to cross off the list means so much that I'm at the point in my life to where I can make that happen.

32:35Yes, only it can be only money, but as far as life's going on, being able to do that is a whole nother thing. Well, and, and working for an organization that helps facilitate that, right? Like, that, that looks at it and says You know, I've seen a lot of shops that they'll get a manager and they'll get that manager to the position that that manager can't leave, can't do anything else.

32:57No, we need you here, we need you here. Yeah, you got paid time off, but man, it's not okay because I got this. And oh, what about this thing that's coming up? And so it's always something, always a reason why they've got to be there. And, and I think you look at this organization and, and when we talk about the culture, the culture has prioritized the people not the business.

33:17And, and I think in turn what that's created is an environment where the people then prioritize the business just the way that the business prioritizes them. And so I've seen that from the outside looking in. You deal with a lot of telephone calls, right? You filled a ton of telephone calls. What are the majority of the support cases that you guys deal with?

33:41You know, we've We've got a lot of shop owners listening, and so if, if you're going to say, hey, here's some major pieces of advice, I would love to kind of dig into this a little bit and see if we can help them. Yes, sir. Two main things that come to mind: reconciliation and protecting yourself from a chargeback. Which one you want to dive in first?

34:01Uh, hey, hey, we got to do the chargeback thing because I— listen, I just had a conversation with a guy the other day Okay, and, and he is a 360 customer. He says to me, he said, now I don't take any payments over the telephone, but I've got 360 Payments and they guarantee that if I take a payment online, nobody can charge that back.

34:21And I said, ain't nobody doing that. Nobody said what? I said, ain't nobody gonna do that. I said that unless you take that card in person or they give you cash money, that money is not yours until that terms of service says it is. It's crazy. Okay, let's start with chargebacks. So in that, in that statement there, I would say maybe just the perception of that conversation, what they took away from that conversation with the sales rep when onboarding on whoever they spoke with.

34:48Yeah. Um, you know, we're big with text-to-pay or, you know, um, you know, web, website payments as well, but there's still a possible way for that to be disputed. So the transaction details is secure. The information, the card number, the data that's coming with it is secure. But there's no processor anywhere that can say, hey, they're not gonna— they're not gonna be allowed to dispute this transaction because of the way it was processed.

35:16That's not gonna happen. Yeah. And that was my message to him, is that like, hey, you need— you need protections in shop and in your process to protect you from chargebacks. And so, you know, some of the things that we did— and, and Jesse walked me through the only chargeback I've ever had. I just made a short about the chargeback because it was such a crazy story, right?

35:39And, and the dude was a professional friendly fraudster, right? Like, we figured out later, this is what this dude does. And, and like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of chargebacks. Had been contacted by law enforcement multiple times. You know what saved my butt is that when he charged this back, we were able to collect enough data to determine that he did it in the parking lot before he left.

36:04Wow. And so he was sitting in his car. We've even got it on video where he was sitting in his car. Now, you can't see what he was doing, right? But based on the time that he was sitting in the parking lot on his telephone, And the way that he handled the process, the local law enforcement was able to say this was theft of services because they listened to the calls.

36:27And, and so what I've learned about these people, and I've learned about friendly fraudsters, especially when it's big amounts, is they talk in circles. They do not talk to you like you're having a conversation with them and we're, we're trying to accomplish this goal, right? They talk to the point you can't understand what they're talking about. And you get to the point you're really just wanting them to say yes or no.

36:47I don't care which it is. I just want to get off the phone with you. I don't want to do this. This sucks. And so what do we do? We start pushing the conversation along. And I'll never forget these recorded telephone calls when my service advisor says, you know, now here I do need to go ahead and get on with these other clients and, and here's your estimates.

37:05I just need to know what you would like to do. Mm-hmm. He said, because we offered to let him do it online and authorize it himself. And he said, no, I'm not good with technology. And then he says, do you guys take credit cards? That was the first time I could clearly understand what he said. And I thought, that's really weird. Why would you need to ask?

37:25Does somebody take credit cards in this day and age? That's odd, right? Right. And like, my, my process now is I've got an email in my inbox right now from a guy. Hey, do you, do you take credit cards? We sure do, with proper identification. Yes. Yes. And so he comes through and, and he speaks plain as day. As soon as my service advisor says, yes, we take credit cards, he says, oh my goodness, well, go ahead and do all that work then.

37:48And he should have known right then what was getting ready to happen. Right there, right there, man. And so they got him, right? No, they got my money back. Yeah, that's it. He calls me back. He calls me like the day after. He's like, I called the sheriff's department. They called me back and they said, hey, he just told me to get bent.

38:08You better, you better go get yourself an attorney. And so the lead detective calls him, and he said about the third time he called my mama a bitch, he said, I decided that I was not going to be nice anymore. He said, he should be calling you soon. And so he calls me and he says, hey, can you, uh, take my money?

38:28And I said, I'm not taking another credit card, buddy. I'm sorry, I'm not doing it. We go around and around. He said, uh, He said, listen, he said, I promise I won't charge this thing back. He said, I give you money. He said, please just call them law dogs off. I'm too old to be put in handcuffs. Hey man, all right, let's do it.

38:45Yeah, that friendly fraud is a real thing. It is. And how do you protect yourself then? Like, if it's a thing, how do you protect yourself? So I got a list that I actually— we had an account, I want to say maybe about 4 or 5 months ago where, you know, they were heavy on the Text-to-Pay side of things and they had Friendly Froster, except he had multiple ROs.

39:06So he did it not with just one, he did it for about 4 or 5 different ROs, paying different card types, things like that. And just, and the shop itself wasn't, you know, they were looking at a, just a surface level. Once I was able to go on the phone with them and actually show them how they should be doing this the proper way.

39:25Yes, it takes extra time. Yes, extra work. But guess what? You got all that time back that you just lost. Yeah, with protecting yourself, you know. And so, um, I actually ended up creating the standard operating procedures for them, for someone that's doing text-to-pay or over-the-phone payment when things like that come in. And so one thing, just for all the shops that's listening, uh, don't allow a first-time customer just to do, you know, come in and, oh, I want this fixed, this, this fix, and I want to pay over the phone, I want to pay you in text-to-pay.

39:55Build that rapport up. That's super important. Super important. Yeah. Scan documentation, copy of the ID, just so it matches and confirm the name. You don't have to take a copy of the credit card, but just confirm that the name on the card that they plan on using does match the driver's license. You can do that at the time when they're dropping off the vehicle.

40:13Hey, well, we know what car we plan on using when it's time to pay. If we're dropping off the car, we already have that in our head. We already have it in our head what we're going to do. Um, another thing would be, you know, set a standard limit for text-to-pay transactions or any online payments. Don't allow anyone to just say, my first time using you guys, I want to replace my engine and I want to make payment over the phone.

40:34I want to pay $15,000. That's asking for it. You know, you got to be able to catch those red flags. You know, for example, I'll have to go ahead. Well, so like the reason I think it's important to stop right here and talk about this is especially over the telephone. Or when someone is remote like that, the issue then becomes like they, they can go online and buy a credit card number, right?

40:57Yeah. And that credit card number may or may not work. And I just think about how many times your credit card has been used, right? Think about that for a second. A scammer picks it up and your credit card starts being used. What do they do? They start with $5 here, then they go to $10 and they go $20 and they go to $30 and they go to $50.

41:16And it just keeps going up because they're trying to figure out how far will this card let me go. And so they know how to play this game. They're smart. They know what they're doing. And if you're taking that, that card and you don't know that person, right? Like, it's one thing if it's somebody that is, is a citizen in town that's upstanding and you know them and you see them around and you talk to them.

41:38But if it's a new client you've never seen before, or if there's, if there's red flags, Right. I found a lot of red flags. Uh, do you take credit cards? That's, that's a big one. That's a big one. Why would you ask? 14.5, that's a big one. And I, and I have some red flags too, and we're going to get to that.

41:53I'll set up, you know, the one last thing I would say, um, do not let third parties, you know, purchase or pay for services. Oh, my boyfriend, my uncle, my aunt. Yes. My mother-in-law, my cousin, my teacher, my bank rep. Don't, just don't let any, any third parties pay for a service. If they plan on paying for the service, hey, can we ask, hey, can you please have them send you the funds so that way you can pay with your card so everything lines up in my system?

42:19You know, and one situation like that is that when they know, when you say, when you ask that question, it should raise a red flag for them that, hey, I'm paying attention to what you're trying to do. And fraudsters usually, you know, they're all, you know, always rushing. Always trying to, you know, push you, push you, push you to get something done so that way you're not paying attention and you're not paying attention to the red flags.

42:42And so one thing we got to do with that is if your name, if it's John Doe, right? We're not going to let John Doe's girlfriend pay for the service because if John Doe and his girlfriend breaks up in the next 4 or 5 months, she can dispute that transaction because they have 6 months. And if it's fraud, there's no time limit.

43:00There's no time limit for fraud chargebacks. If, if they can say, hey, that was not me, yeah, there's no limit. Well, so you know what I've done in instances where I have no choice, right? What I do is I created a DocuSign and it's got a credit card authorization, and then in DocuSign I can create that I want you to upload images, and you have to upload an image of the credit card.

43:24I don't care if it's just the last 4 and your name right? And then you have to upload your ID. And so I specifically document in there, I don't want the whole card number, I want the last 4 and your name. That's all I care about. And so I, I actually had one that was a white, just basic plain plastic card, no nothing on it.

43:45And this guy sent it in with it like inkjet printed the number on the back of it, and, and like, uh, you can tell it's not a real magnetic strip. And I'm like, bro, I like, are you seriously trying this? And so what it does is it makes them upload their ID, it makes them upload a picture of the credit card. So now not only did you sign it, but if you are committing fraud, guess what?

44:10I have your ID, and I know that I'm only releasing this card to this person. It says in the agreement I will only release it to the person with this ID. So if you come in, you have to show me this ID to be able to leave with the car. That's lovely. And, and guess what? And they say, well, but I'm paying for my son, I'm paying for my whatever.

44:30Well, okay, you need to transfer that money into his account. Yes. And let him pay with the card, because it's important for your college-age child to learn how to pay their bills. Very much so, man. And that's a good process. Letter of authorization can go a long way. A letter of authorization can go a long way. Does it? So it does help in a chargeback instance, right?

44:52Because yes, when I talked to Jesse about this, Jesse was saying, Lucas, and, and was it what, 4 or 5 years ago now that they changed chargeback laws or changed chargeback policy for one of the credit card companies? I wouldn't be able to speak. I haven't heard any changes or any kind of updates since I've been in, in the field. Okay, as far as anything changed, and I haven't heard anything.

45:14I, I think Jesse told me that there was some sort of change at some point that made it much more difficult to win a chargeback. And it was like, so I don't know if it was a law or if there was like a company policy that changed for one of these companies. And he said, hey, after this, it's really hard to win chargebacks, and so make sure you're documented.

45:35I was going to say, maybe if we add the context of car not present Chargebacks, that, that's what it is. Very difficult. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, card not present chargebacks are very, very difficult because the risk is already there. The, the card was not there at the business. It was not inserted in the machine. Yeah, you just took it over the phone or online.

45:54And so in this situation, you don't know who processed that transaction or who, whose card it is, you know. And so it's uphill battle once that comes through. And that's exactly why you have to pay attention to to those red flags that you were discussing earlier. And I do have, let me see, about 6 or 7 that I can run through for— Yeah, love it.

46:11Um, first one, customers who advise that there's no way they'll be able to come into the shop and everything has to be done over the phone. First red flag. Yeah, they're saying that right out the gate when they're, you know, trying to bring the vehicle in for service. You— we have to pay attention to that. The second one, when the customer advises that someone else will be paying for the services provided.

46:33We have to pay attention to that. We have to know, just like you said in your process, hey, you got to transfer the money. Make sure your college kid knows how to pay their bills. Third one, when a customer does not care how much a service costs. That is a big one. That's when a customer does not care how much a service costs.

46:51Yes. I have one story from this. I was speaking with a shop owner, you know, tire place. He said, hey, You know, I have this customer, he called in, works for a construction company. He said, you know, and this is all after the fact, you know, chargeback's already been placed. I want to say it was about, yeah, $10,500 for a chargeback. Oh my God.

47:11Yeah. Yeah. Listen to the story. I was like, he said, hey, um, this chargeback happened, you know, it's already been escalated to me at this time. I was a supervisor. So I'm like, okay, tell me what happened. What's going on? Verbatim. Well, this guy called. He's working with a construction company and he wanted to buy all his employees tires. And so what, true story, whoops, and David, true story.

47:33He wanted to buy his employees, you know, tires and everything. And, you know, so it wasn't no sweat off my back. We was making a good little profit off of it. And so, you know, he had gave me the card and we ran it, you know, we got all the tires and I was like, okay. And I was like, we didn't think about, you know, him knowing the tire size for all his employees.

47:51You didn't think about that when he said that? Yeah, at a minimum, we should be getting a spreadsheet for each employee, right? What tires you need. And he was like, well, I didn't, I didn't think about that. I'm like, okay, that's fine. And he said, what else happened? He said, yeah, I didn't, I didn't, it really didn't ring a bell until they actually came to pick up the tires.

48:12And they came in the box truck and everything, and they load the tires up, and I walked out there and was like, hey, You guys, do you guys need us to, you know, balance them and things? And it was like, no, we have a machine for that. And they left. I was like, okay. I was like, so you had to be at some point saying, well, hey, so have you heard the new one?

48:33Um, a local shop, uh, to me just got taken. He posted in the group and he just got taken. And so what, what the situation was is that, and, and the, the shop that I was telling you who said like, hey, 360's got my back, I, I can't have charge chargebacks against me because they've got my back, right? He, he went through something very similar, and the situation was is that someone had, um, ordered a wheel, ordered a tire, ordered something, and if I understand correctly, they paid for it, they delivered it to this man, he charges it back and then returns the product and asks for a refund and says, no, I don't want

49:13that. Or maybe it was that they hadn't even delivered it yet. And he said, I want a refund. And so he said, okay, you know what, there's a restocking fee, I'll just go ahead and give you the refund, not a big deal. So he, he refunds it, and at the exact same time, this man has done a chargeback. So it was like $3,000 of merchandise, and he didn't realize that when he refunded it to the guy, at the exact same time, he had done this chargeback.

49:39So it wasn't $3,000 he lost, it was $6,000 he lost. And so that's a game people are playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have heard of that. And one thing, and that's what we try our best to make sure the shops and the tire shops and this are aware of the chargeback immediately. We know everyone doesn't check their emails, you know, throughout the day.

49:58So that's one thing. So one thing that we do here at 360, um, once we get notified that the chargeback has been received, the charge, the notification from the car brand is already sent. Via email. We sent, we sent another email just to make sure from us, hey, you received a chargeback. Want to make you aware of that, you know, so you can take the necessary steps.

50:20If the transaction is over $1,000 and you receive a chargeback, a case is created for my customer support team to reach out to you via email and phone. Hey, did you realize you received this chargeback? It's over $1,000. You know, we want to make sure you're aware of that. And once they answer the phone, oh yeah, I did see it come through.

50:37Thanks for calling. Okay. Do you know what you need to support yourself in this transaction or in this dispute? And we're able to help them in that moment in time, answer any questions. We can't do it for you, but we're here to help you. And that goes a long way. That goes a long way because a lot of processors do not help.

50:54They're like, hey, you got a chargeback, you know, take a step back, do your thing. So let me ask a question because I've heard, and I may be completely wrong here, I've heard that if you get a lot of chargebacks, there's a negative impact on your business. And so what I mean, obviously financial, but, but from your credit card processor. One thing I found very interesting is I became more involved with the family business.

51:18They have smaller ticket numbers, right? So they're typically $100 to $300 ticket on average is what they have. And the number of chargebacks that they get are unbelievable because they sell, uh, they sell tickets online. And so just, I mean, it's fraud. Oh, I didn't like the product I got. Oh, it's this. Oh, it's that. And, and typically you really can kind of see the people who are going to do it.

51:44And some of it's probably friendly fraud. Some of it is like just flat out fraud. Yeah. But they get a lot of them. And I, I'm worried about just getting one as a shop and, and mainly because of the high ticket dollar amount. Right. But does this have a negative impact on a business as far as getting multiple chargebacks? Yes, sir. Yes, sir, definitely can, especially from the processor perspective.

52:07Uh, it's not based off the total number of chargebacks, it is based off a percentage of your total volume. So let's say, I believe right now, before you become a high-risk account, um, 4% of your total volume, that's the limit before. We want to keep that below 4%. Okay, if you go over that 4%, you'll be, you could be labeled as a high-risk account, which what happens, your rates could go up.

52:34Not even just with 360, with the card brand herself, with everybody, you know, you're already losing money, you're paying more. And then depending on how that chargeback process goes, we know how the, you know, Facebook and social media works when you get a bad rap for a name and, you know, Joe Blow is telling everybody your business is doing bad and that you didn't treat them right.

52:54You know, just the report there alone could, could hurt. And so it can go as far as if it's so bad, Visa or Mastercard can stop you from processing their card. You can only— you can't imagine how that would damage the business. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So there's a lot of, a lot of organizations that seem to be— and I've talked to 3 or 4 people recently and they said, hey, I've started this credit card processing company.

53:20And I, I'm, I'm gonna do all the processing. I'm gonna be your processor. I'm gonna save you some money. Usually it's that, hey, we're gonna bill the— we're gonna bill the consumer the fees, that kind of deal. What's that? To me, I don't feel really comfortable with that concept. Okay, right. Like, I'm, I'm not feeling good about that. Can you tell us why that wouldn't be a good idea, or, or is it legit?

53:45As far as— so are we speaking from a surcharging perspective where we're charging our consumer the processing fees? No, I'm talking about these, these operators who, you know, they owned a shop and now they've got a credit card processing company and they, they're coming out of the woodwork and they're going around and asking all these people, hey, I want to provide you— just like all the people who call you every day and say, hey, I'll help you with your credit card rates.

54:08Rick White did a video years ago on our channel and he said if you're worried about your credit card processing rates, you're, you're stepping over dollars to pick up pennies. Correct. You know, we need to make our business profitable. Um, what— how do we know that we're picking a good credit card processor is really at the end of the day my question.

54:25Oh, gotcha, man. Transparency. Do they, do they provide you the information? Are they telling you what's going on? Are they trying to teach you? Are they— we, we love to make our customers independent. We're going to give you all the information you need to know, and that's just a part of being transparent. Because in this case, a lot of processors Oh, well, we can't tell you how that works, or we're going to explain it in a way where it doesn't make sense.

54:48So that way, yeah, we're still in control and you're not well in the know to make an informative decision. You know, that's the main thing is having those conversations, not just with the sales reps. When you call them support, have those conversations because the sales rep is what, you know, starts. That's the dating in the relationship. Yeah. You know, the support side is maintaining that relationship.

55:09And how much support and what kind of support you get is very important. You know, so I would say from a shop's perspective, you know, you have a great processor if they're helping you grow, if they're giving you information, giving you, you know, the tips and things. Like I said, you know, keep an eye out for the red flags. We have these conversations.

55:30I've sent out the documentation that's for customer view. You know, we want you guys to know this to help build you because the better you get, the more you improve. The more we improve. Yeah, for sure. Now, if our listeners wanted a copy of, say, the, the standard operating procedure you recommend and the, the, um, red flags that you've said, can you provide us that so they can— is there a website, some way that we can get it to them?

55:54I believe it's on our Facebook, Facebook page. Our marketing has definitely public, you know, put that out. It's on our LinkedIn as well. You know, scroll through there and you can actually see that and download that, but it's definitely there, the red flags and tips on how you can, you know, protect yourself because it is needed. It's not just, you can be great at what you do.

56:11You have to have a foundation on how to protect your business. We all work too hard. We are responsible for other families, the employees, everything. We can't say, oh, you know, we had this $10,000 chargeback, so I don't know if I'm gonna be able to pay you, you know, so you can feed your family. We're responsible for a lot of things if you're the leader in charge.

56:30So just, just doing the right thing the first time is so important. Yep, I agree 100%. Brother, I appreciate you being here more than you know. Yes sir, I appreciate it, man. You know, it's a long time coming. Yes sir, absolutely, buddy. I can't wait to see you again soon. Hopefully we're at another event in the same area. Uh, they don't let you get out and go to all the trade shows.

56:51I've tried to file formal complaints and they told me that my, my formal complaint wasn't accepted. I was able to get out for SEMA last year. I was able to get out for that, and hopefully I can this year as well, man. But, you know, I'm here to support the people, you know, and help them grow. So, hey, we'll make David buy us dinner.

57:09We'll all go to— we'll all go to Apex. David can buy dinner, and then you can, you can handle all of his chargebacks for In-N-Out Burger. If you need me, reach out, you know. If you need me for chargebacks, I'm here to support you. Did you, did you know David has not switched to 360 Payroll? I heard it, I heard it on the last podcast.

57:25There's going to be I watched about 4 videos. He said that when he was talking to Lisa, when she said anything about CSP, yeah, I did my research, David, CSP, and what he didn't like. And then he was like, oh, we'll be here all day. How much time we got? What's holding up David up from CSP? And David, if you want to ask, what was the one thing that you didn't like?

57:52That we didn't have clarity on regarding this CFP since I'm here. The, the, see, the, the, the dual funding or CFP, what is that? Dual funding as far as funding from the lender, or— and no, so it's, it's split funding. So I swipe the credit card once and then a certain percentage goes into one account and then the rest goes into another account.

58:15He has to do this because if it doesn't he will spend all the money in one account, yeah, and then he can't pay his bills into a completely different— it goes into a completely different account. That's all I asked for. I just needed that. And I was told by several people at 360 that you guys didn't have it. And then Lisa, she's like, we have that.

58:34And I'm like, I asked. And she like, she started texting and she's like, yeah, we have that. No, we can't. And I'll answer that right here, right now on the show. Uh, we definitely can do that. And so in your question, my only rebuttal would be when you say dual funding Um, are you saying that you want your credit cards from your shop to go to one account and you want the funding from the lender to go to another account?

58:55No, no. Well, I mean, that'll work too, but no, we don't, we don't use the lender stuff all that often. Okay. Uh, it's, it's a very small percentage. No, it's just, it, you know, you— somebody spends $1,000 with you, $250 goes into one bank account and then $750 shows up on a different bank account. It's one swipe. Yeah, so I will make that clear.

59:16We cannot do that. Oh, I'll make it clear. I'll make a full circle. We cannot do that. How did Lisa screw that up? Maybe she didn't understand. I would not say that. She's a very scary woman. I would just— just stop right now, David. Yeah, just, just, you know, hey, I'll take that back. Maybe she misunderstood. I— it was my fault for not explaining correctly what it was, right?

59:43You see what kind of clarifying questions I asked. Hey, listen, 4 days later, David Roman is no longer walking the face of this planet. What happened? David met Lisa. Right, right, right, right. No, man, I've definitely paid attention to the shows, man. I was, I was watching for a little bit, man, just trying to see, you know, okay, how's it go? We don't have any Tony Mercury slander.

1:00:07I watch another show as well, you know, so just, just being clear, you know, just I appreciate it. I think we can— did we slander Tony Mercury? We didn't do that. I think we probably should slander Tony Mercury. We didn't. It was just, you know, that's my guy. Look, look, I'm just telling you, I'm just telling you, I, I'm not so sure.

1:00:27He did the double-breasted jacket thing this year, and I love the jacket. I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm just saying I still don't know that he buttoned to the right button. Okay, we had a big discussion on this. I'm not sure that he buttoned the right button. I'm just going to put that out there. If you button the wrong button, does it like throw a signal?

1:00:48Does it like, does it tell a certain group of people like, oh, okay. Like when you put the earring on the wrong ear, is that what you're saying? Is it one of them deals? Probably with Tony, yes, it probably is. And I'm just going to point out like the whole moonshine story, I did not tell that. This episode. I think, I think I deserve a prize.

1:01:08You do deserve a prize. I'm gonna— that's brownie points for you. Yeah, but I appreciate you fellas, man, having me on and let me speak to chargeback and things like that. So I really do appreciate it, man. Yes, sir. And, uh, I will talk to you soon. Hopefully we'll be at a trade show together. Yes, sir. All right, you guys have a great day.

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